Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: A question for Camrillo/Uncle Terry/Tim/whoever wants to chime in

Posted by minutia on 03-23-2007 at17:03:

quote:

Originally posted by Strange Animal

quote:

Originally posted by minutia
OK, how do you define "CCM." If the 77s are not CCM, then you can't just include everyone on a Christian or CCM label because the 77s were there (Word).

the 77's, Da, etc. were only on major ccm labels at one point in time because that was the only means possible to get their albums released...
the both are definitely NOT ccm now... Roll Eyes

those labels burned them and treated them like red-headed step-children when their albums didn't sell as much as ccm artists.....
maybe in the 70's ccm included some cool acts...
not it is all just big business and crappy music......... Frown

Really? the 77s and DA were only on major CCM labels because there was no other option? It was nothing, or the largest CCM label in the world?

Whether or not they're still CCM depends on how you define what CCM is. Since they're making music that has the same message as what they made back then, I'm assuming you're saying they're not CCM now because they're not on a CCM label? If so, then Steve Taylor, Mark Heard, the 77s, DA, Undercover, etc were all CCM at one point. So knocking CCM is knocking at least some of their music.

Posted by Garth on 03-23-2007 at17:55:

Frown

i just miss the country music.............. Crying

Posted by dennis on 03-23-2007 at18:09:

quote:

Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined.

CCM Defined in 3 easy steps:

Step 1: Pick a very popular song, i.e. The Fray's "How to save a life."

Step 2: Make another version of the song with "Christian" lyrics.
i.e. "How to Pray to Christ."

Step 3: Make a truckload of money.

Posted by Strange Animal on 03-23-2007 at18:15:

Thumb Down!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Christian_music

Contemporary Christian Music (or CCM) is a genre of popular music which is lyrically focused on matters concerned with the Christian faith. The term is typically used to refer to the Nashville, Tennessee-based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry, currently represented by artists such as Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, Jars of Clay, MercyMe, Petra, Keith Green, Michael Card, Third Day, Relient K, Jeremy Camp, and a host of others. The industry is represented in Billboard Magazine's "Top Christian Albums" and "Hot Christian Songs" charts,[1] as well as the iTunes Music Store's "Christian & Gospel" genre.

The term "Contemporary Christian Music" originated in the late 1960s in reference to the emerging pop and rock "Jesus music", the musical outpouring of the hippie Jesus Movement of the time.[2] Artists such as Larry Norman, 2nd Chapter of Acts, and Love Song were among the first to express their Christian faith in the form of rock music.

There is also a great deal of popular music which lyrically identifies with Christianity but is not normally considered Contemporary Christian Music.[2] For example, many underground punk and hardcore bands deal explicitly with issues of faith but are not a part of the Nashville industry (e.g., Seattle-based Tooth and Nail Records). Also, several mainstream music artists sometimes deal with Christian themes in their work, such as Bob Dylan and U2, but fall outside of the CCM genre

Posted by jollyholiday on 03-23-2007 at20:22:

quote:

Originally posted by dennis

quote:

Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined.

I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album!

Posted by Ron E on 03-23-2007 at21:05:

He tried but got the formula wrong with Sacred Cows.

Posted by Strange Animal on 03-24-2007 at01:51:

quote:

Originally posted by jollyholiday

quote:

Originally posted by dennis

quote:

Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined.

I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album!

terry is not ccm and thus doesn't have the truckload.............
don't you get it? Frown

oh, and btw........ the newsboys show tonight was actually quite good... Big Grin

Posted by dennis on 03-24-2007 at09:49:

quote:

Originally posted by Strange Animal

quote:

Originally posted by jollyholiday

quote:

Originally posted by dennis

quote:

Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined.

I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album!

terry is not ccm and thus doesn't have the truckload.............
don't you get it? Frown

oh, and btw........ the newsboys show tonight was actually quite good... Big Grin

Yeah... Terry is not in this camp.

Posted by dennis on 03-24-2007 at09:50:

Angry

quote:

Originally posted by Ron E
He tried but got the formula wrong with Sacred Cows.

He got it right on the head if you ask me! Big Grin

Posted by Eis on 03-24-2007 at10:03:

The Newsboys have historically put on a good show...as did Paul Colman when he had his trio. Glad the night wasn't a total disappointment...

Posted by Audiori J on 03-24-2007 at11:24:

Not only is Terry part of CCM, he was one of its pioneers. He probably produced more CCM albums than anyone else in the market. And I would dispute that "make a truckload of money" is part of the equation, except in the very rare case. I think this is an interesting topic, and it really does speak to the original question of if there should be negative reviews. The whole market of CCM is a dichotomy that a faith based business is. Often times people want to hold the artist to two different standards. They want them to be "Christian" artists, ministry minded, not after the dollar, traveling bards who express their faith for free, give away their music - and they want to be able to rate their albums from a standard business perspective, the production is no good, they don't measure up to secular counterparts, etc. They want the artist to treat it like its not a business, but they themselves want to treat the artist as if it is a business.

I think there are three types of artist, one that are in it for money that is their goal. I believe their success is measured simply in dollars. There are those who have a goal to reach people and express their faith, and take on that traveling bard type of mission. I believe their success is measured by the lives they touch. And there are artists that have a weird mixture of both, their goal is making good art and expressing their faith - they recognise the ugly necessity of money and being a good steward. Their success is measured by the lives they touch and the quality of their art.

I believe the bands we love fall into the third catagory. To make a superior product that 'measures up' they unfortunately need funds. Its not their goal, but its a necessity if they want to continue being viable in their goal.

Someone mentioned "Mr Buechners Dream" as the best thing Terry has done in a long time. I personally would rate "Lost Cabin" pretty close but they are hard to compare since its two different bands. But "Mr Buechners Dream" had a pretty good budget, probably the biggest budget for a Terry related release that we have been involved with. There were quite a few preorders and I myself invested about $2500 into the album, we were told the manager invested $2000 and Terry said there were other investors. The result is a quality product, it was well written, excellently performed, well recorded, wonderfully engineered and mastered. All of those things cost.

The fact that they try to not only express their faith through art, they also acknowledge the business side of things as a necessity to make quality art leads me to say that their albums can be rated both from a business standpoint and from a lives touched standpoint. CCM can review the art, as measuring up or not. And we the fans can measure how much the album means to us, and the quality of art.

I believe there is an element of CCM that developed in the 90s mainly, that is more heavy on the business side. Companies and some artists have shifted their focus closer to the goal of making 'truckloads of money'. Its not all of the artists and not many reach that goal anyway. But I believe that is the element we all despise. I also believe making money is not evil, the love of money is the root of all evil. I would be happy if Terry and the band could make a good living off this art. But as we all know they are the really contemporary, to the point of being ahead of their time, contemporary Christian music artists. They have always been pushing the envelope of that bubble. I believe the artists that do that in this market, and don't conform, take a financial hit. Most of the Cornerstone bands fall into this catagory, the very, very few make truckloads of money. Most are scraping by, because they have been faithful to their art and their fans. They have not sold out and starting making slop pop for a quick buck. A lot of their fans understand this and that is why they support them so vigorously. They want to keep this half of the ccm market from dieing off, so that all we are left with is the crap that is out for money.

Posted by Strange Animal on 03-24-2007 at11:48:

Frown

again, depends on what your definition is of ccm........
if you compare the first paragraph to the second, it looks like the definition has changed...
yes, terry would be part of the second paragraph... the original Jesus music movement... along with keith green, randy stonehill and larry norman... sure..
but the big business, radio friendly stuff coming out of nashville now?
terry is most certainly not a part of that... and would hope doesn't want to be........ Red Face

quote:

Originally posted by Strange Animal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Christian_music

Contemporary Christian Music (or CCM) is a genre of popular music which is lyrically focused on matters concerned with the Christian faith. The term is typically used to refer to the Nashville, Tennessee-based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry, currently represented by artists such as Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, Jars of Clay, MercyMe, Petra, Keith Green, Michael Card, Third Day, Relient K, Jeremy Camp, and a host of others. The industry is represented in Billboard Magazine's "Top Christian Albums" and "Hot Christian Songs" charts,[1] as well as the iTunes Music Store's "Christian & Gospel" genre.

The term "Contemporary Christian Music" originated in the late 1960s in reference to the emerging pop and rock "Jesus music", the musical outpouring of the hippie Jesus Movement of the time.[2] Artists such as Larry Norman, 2nd Chapter of Acts, and Love Song were among the first to express their Christian faith in the form of rock music.

There is also a great deal of popular music which lyrically identifies with Christianity but is not normally considered Contemporary Christian Music.[2] For example, many underground punk and hardcore bands deal explicitly with issues of faith but are not a part of the Nashville industry (e.g., Seattle-based Tooth and Nail Records). Also, several mainstream music artists sometimes deal with Christian themes in their work, such as Bob Dylan and U2, but fall outside of the CCM genre

Posted by Audiori J on 03-24-2007 at11:59:

CCM is not one or the other, its both. Both are elements of CCM, even by that fan written definition. CCM is a spectrum that ranges from Bands such as DA, 77s, Stonehill, Keaggy all the way to the other side with Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, Jars of Clay. There is faith based experimental music and faith based pop, and everything in between.

Terry has been part of the Nashville, Tennessee-based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry... just as he was part of the Califronia- based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry... in the rock or previously country section. Galaxy21 had a deal with Diamante, Terry has had albums put out by the Benson Music Group, was part of KMG and Frontline, and of course Maranatha. Even Solid Rock had a deal with Word. All part of the CCM industry.

Posted by PuP on 03-24-2007 at13:34:

There are only two kinds of music: good and bad.

And we will probably never agree 100% about which is which.

Posted by dennis on 03-24-2007 at13:35:

quote:

Originally posted by Strange Animal
again, depends on what your definition is of ccm........
if you compare the first paragraph to the second, it looks like the definition has changed...
yes, terry would be part of the second paragraph... the original Jesus music movement... along with keith green, randy stonehill and larry norman... sure..

Exactly. You have it right.

Posted by dennis on 03-24-2007 at13:36:

quote:

Originally posted by PuP
There are only two kinds of music: good and bad.

And we will probably never agree 100% about which is which.

Now that is the plain and simple truth right there. Pleased

Posted by Strange Animal on 03-24-2007 at14:50:

Cool

quote:

Originally posted by dennis

quote:

Exactly. You have it right.

doc's got my back once again............ Pleased

s.a.

Posted by audiori on 03-24-2007 at15:11:

Most of us are all sickened by the cheasy cornball mainstream CCM stuff... but thats never been *all* of what has come out of the Christian Music market. "CCM" is a label that is generally slapped on all of it.. its not a specific style or genre. That cheasy stuff has always been there, but there has also always been good music coming out of the same labels and the same towns...

In the 70s, there was DA, Stonehill, Mark Heard and Keaggy.

In the 80s, there was Leslie Phillips' "The Turning," the Choir, DA, Stonehill, Keaggy, Steve Taylor, Mark Heard, the 77s, Vector, Julie Miller, etc, etc.

In the 90s, there was the Choir, DA, Mark Heard, Julie Miller, Lost Dogs, Stonehill, Keaggy, Steve Taylor, Rich Mullins, Fleming and John, etc.

In the 2000s, theres still DA, the 77s, the Lost Dogs, the Choir, etc. Heck, WORD released a couple of Bruce Cockburn albums just a few years ago... that doesn't make Bruce exactly like the Tuxedo Clad Megastar, it just means that there can be good stuff coming out of the Christian market occasionally... whether we like the average stuff or not.

If you want to define CCM by some specific style of pop-praise or something like that, then fine.. these guys wouldn't fit it. But, thats generally not how people define CCM. THats why CCM Magazine has always covered everything from Dallas Holm, Al Denson and Sandi Patti to U2, Sam Phillips and Bruce Cockburn (although, its admittedly very lopsided coverage due to their target audience). Thats why DA was just inducted into their hall of fame a couple of years ago. Thats why the 77s were nominated for the hall of fame last year.

Posted by jollyholiday on 03-24-2007 at15:37:

quote:

Originally posted by Strange Animal

quote:

Originally posted by jollyholiday

quote:

Originally posted by dennis

quote:

Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined.

I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album!

terry is not ccm and thus doesn't have the truckload.............
don't you get it? Frown

oh, and btw........ the newsboys show tonight was actually quite good... Big Grin

I do get it, but I don't think you do.

My Terry's truckload comment was with tongue firmly in cheek.

The notion that ccm artists on the average have a truckload of money is laughable (though I don't think that was the point Dennis was trying to make). I maintain that Terry and most of his incarnations were and still are part of ccm as are many of my favorites (77s / Stonehill / Mark Heard/etc.)

All the word battling and defining in the world will not argue those artists out of their place in ccm history like it or not.

-jolly

Posted by audiori on 03-24-2007 at18:47:

THis conversation reminds me of one I had with on an email list years ago with a bunch of folks including Tom Willett and TBone Burnett. Most of the criticisms of the Christian music industry were fine with me.. I agreed with most of them, if not all of them. However, at one point, I think it was Willett that made a comment about how "no one should ever buy anything thats sold in a Christian record store."

That seemed a bit extreme to me... I reminded Tom that that included nearly every record he's ever been involved with, plus DA, the Choir, Sam Phillips, Cockburn, Mark Heard, U2 and even TBone himself. Tom agreed that that was true and stepped back from the comment a little and clarified what he meant. There was never a thought in my mind that Tom was talking about those kinds of artists when he made the comment... but, the list was full of people that don't know the difference between DA and the Tuxedo Clad Megastar. To them, it's all the same. So by making a sweeping comment like that... those folks would poetentially never give someone like Mark Heard a try because hes sold in Christian music stores.

I think anytime we criticize "CCM" or Christian music artists... we need to be very specific about who we're talking about because to most folks (especially people that are uneducated about the good Christian music) its all in the same category.