Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: Illegal Stuff and Downloads

Posted by Mountain Fan on 10-15-2008 at15:45:

i wouldn't knowingly buy a counterfeit, and if i got something suspect i would attempt to resolve the situation.

that being said, i think radrockers has served a purpose. i think a lot of the genuine old CCM stuff they have might have gone to the landfill were it not for their efforts. Pleased

if they keep up the counterfeiting it will only be bad for them in the long run. what goes around comes around. Frown

if i didn't have a copy of gift horse, green room serenade, best of DA, LD - even the M8 litttle red riding hood / pray where you are that some are so fond of complaining about (still sounds better than cassette) - i would still be getting them pronto. Smile

Posted by audiori on 10-15-2008 at15:56:

quote:

Originally posted by jiminy
I do recall under one of the the big tents at C stone- a small stack of Shotgunangel- with a very crappy photocopied cover- that still had Terrys autograph on it.
so yeah - its not just a title (I cant sincerely recall whos booth- I have a guess..)

yeah, that was an M8 masterpiece - put together without cooperation from DA. Some things never change...

Posted by audiori on 10-15-2008 at16:00:

I think RadRockers has served a purpose for a long time... I've ordered a lot from them in the past and they've always carried our titles. They've also always been very supportive of these bands in the past.

Once they stop being supportive and begin to create what I can only call a hostile relationship with these artists.. then what? Knowingly selling illegal cheapo ripoffs just to make a buck against the wishes of the artists themselves is pretty hostile. Add to that the fact that they're helping to support the crook thats creating these counterfeits. They can fix this.. but if they continue down that road, I think they will stop serving a purpose... at least a legitimate one. I doubt many of these artists will continue to do business with them (as in selling them new titles as they're released) if this trend continues. They'll get to a point where they'll be trying to survive on old titles and ("Christian") bootlegs.

It may be "just business" to many, but outside of the Christian music world.. its just business that would get folks in deep trouble.

Posted by jiminy on 10-15-2008 at22:24:

It may be "just business" to many, but outside of the Christian music world.. its just business that would get folks in deep trouble.

Confused

I wasnt trying to imply it was trite or anything- just that its the way many (sadly ) are in business.
Hope that didnt get misread.

Botom line - I am always more intersted in supporting direct whenever I can.

Posted by audiori on 10-15-2008 at23:48:

Oh no, I don't think I misread your comments.. I was just using your phrase to make my point.. nothing directed at you or contrary to your comments. I suppose in my mind I connected it to your comments in a way... sort of parallel to what you were saying.

The point was just that when its in the Christian Music world, for some reason a lot of people seem to think anything goes. If its otherwise unavailable (or even if its not in some cases), do anything you want with it - if its Christian. Outside of that world, no one would stand for it and the counterfeiters would be sued or worse.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 10-16-2008 at10:04:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
Oh no, I don't think I misread your comments.. I was just using your phrase to make my point.. nothing directed at you or contrary to your comments. I suppose in my mind I connected it to your comments in a way... sort of parallel to what you were saying.

The point was just that when its in the Christian Music world, for some reason a lot of people seem to think anything goes. If its otherwise unavailable (or even if its not in some cases), do anything you want with it - if its Christian. Outside of that world, no one would stand for it and the counterfeiters would be sued or worse.

OK, I have a problem with this on both sides. Obviously counterfeiting is wrong.

So, why do the Christian artists or copyright holders not sue counterfeiters when those in the secular world do? That is stupid. How much does it really cost to get an attorney to send a cease-and-desist letter? Why is the wherewithal not there to fight the counterfeiting? Is there no market for the copyright holders to legitimately reissue the music and profit themselves? Nobody wants to listen to anyone whine or complain. PUT UP OR SHUT UP is a hard business reality. It will be interesting to see how the DFBB reissue does. I hope it turns a grand profit for all. But I am tired of hearing about how great the market might be for reissues when in reality it's probably shrinking and it's just a lame excuse that reissues cost a lot. If the profit motive were really there, more reissues could have been done before with the cheap credit that used to be out there in the economy. Roll Eyes

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at10:23:

From what I've been told by folks that have been involved in copyright-related lawsuits, it generally costs almost as much (or more) to sue as what you would get out of the lawsuit.... especially inside the Christian Music world. The "reward" is directly related to the size of the "damage." That tends to be why big labels only go after big distributors of illegal material and not some dude making a dozen CDRs in his garage. That doesn't mean however that the smalltime counterfeiter cannot get into big trouble for doing it... especially if they're ripping off large companies. It depends greatly on who is doing the stealing and who is being stolen from.

As for the "put up or shut up" argument... its always seemed like a very weird form of blackmail to me. If you don't give it to me, I'm going to take it from you. I think a good argument can be made for that in cases like the Mark Heard music where you have some guy controlling it and the artist not making money from it even when he was alive.

In most other cases, the artists themselves would prefer to work through the legal means and have a reissue released correctly. These counterfeits are crappy CDRs.. no care is given to the quality of the release and no respect (or money) is being paid to the artists. Its one thing for a couple of fans to make a copy of something for a friend... but I don't know any artists that are ok with lare scale distribution of illegal copies. Thats what the counterfeiter is doing here. At the very least, I would think that fans should go along with the artists wishes ont he matter.. if the artist is ok with counterfeiting, then by all means go for it. If they're not, I don't see why the fans would want to force it on them.

In the case of the selling of never-officially-released material (which is currently being done by these individuals), I don't know any artists that are ok with that and I can't understand why any fans would be.

As to the demand for these releases... there is always more than enough demand for someone to make their money back on a reissue of a DA, Eddies, 77s or Dogs title. The only possible exception is if they have to pay $15,000 or more for licensing rights. At one point, Larry Norman wanted something like $25,000 for HD... if DA had paid it, I have no idea if that money would have been recouped. There would certainly be no guarantee for a reissue nearly 30 years after its original release. Solid Rock however could still release it and make a large profit. As with HD, those licensing fees are always changing though.. so something that is impossible release today, might be easier tomorrow. Thats why artists don't like to have the market ruined before something can be worked out.

You're not actually trying to defend or make excuses for the actions of RR or the bootlegger/counterfeiter are you?

Posted by Mountain Fan on 10-16-2008 at10:51:

to summarize:
if you sue you might make your money back
if you reissue you should make your money back
not a lot of either is getting done?

WEWH was expanded reissue of SOTH - i like it but demand was never there much since i don't think it ever sold out?! i guess this was an artist's choice or something like that.

DA Boxset sold out quickly and regularly sells for big $ on ebay when a copy turns up but never reprinted.

DA was reissued and improved Smile

probably decent sales for that one.
DFBB reissue in-process Pleased

HD - something still happening aside from all LN-related crap?

Scenic Routes reprinted at least once
MBD reprinted at least once
All Day Sing finally reissued, hope it is selling. shown on LD store, but out of stock on DA store ?!
http://www.danielamos.com/store/tstindex.html

am i missing something?

should financing for reissues take precedence over release of new material? wow. hadn't thought about that before.

i wouldn't make any excuse for a counterfeiter charging for supposedly legitimate copies of a title (or even if they identify it as a CDR because they're still profiting from it).

i sure would defend file sharing among fans where no money is being made, though. i think any argument that reissue demand might be reduced would be offset by new fans made and interest generated. if you hide it under a bush no one will ever hear it and demand will eventually evaporate anyway.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at11:14:

Most major releases by these bands have had many printings.. not all of them are ever marked as "sold out," since we try to reprint before they're completely gone - like we've been doing with "Lost cabin" and "Midget" so far.

No title has ever stopped selling since I've been doing this. The difference is only in how frequently it has to be reprinted. Sometimes the bands decide to use their current budget on something else instead of reprinting an old title. Its not that they don't want to do it, they just have to prioritize... especially when you're almost always broke. Buechners and SR should both be back soon as there is still a lot of demand for them.

quote:

to summarize:
if you sue you might make your money back
if you reissue you should make your money back
not a lot of either is getting done?

Suing is always a last resort. In every single case where one of these bands is being ripped off, something is always being done about it but its not always a lawsuit.

In the case of reissues.. if its something that we don't automatically have the rights to, its a struggle. Something has to be negotiated. As I said, Larry at one time wanted $25,000 to reissue HD. But, as time goes on, things like that change. Negotiations with Larry went on for multiple years. Before he died, we had an agreement nearly in place that would have rereleased HD on Stunt and SR. Thankfully, the person you're dealing with doesn't normally pass away in the middle of discussions. Something is still in the works for HD or an HD-related sessions collection.

The Alarma Bookset would still be selling if it was reprinted. It was M8's decision to stop it when they did. We're trying to figure out a way to get it back in stock however. Sometimes people making those decisions don't always understand how much demand is there... we had to fight for reprints of "Imaginarium" in the early days because some didn't think it would sell. Thats been one of the biggest sellers we've ever had.

In the last few months, we've had reissues of All Day Sing (which is available on the "Whats New" page in the DA store.. if its listed on the TST page as out of stock, thats just a mistake), Happy Chrimbo, Swirling Mellow, The Revelation, Telethon of Love, Hodgepodge (not to mention, reprints of other titles that were nearly out of stock). Others are coming, including the 77s "Direct," "Roesbud" and "Guilty Pleasures." There is always something happening on that side. Why would you assume not a lot is geting done?

quote:

should financing for reissues take precedence over release of new material? wow. hadn't thought about that before.

You have to do both. The goal is to reissue older titles to generate money for new titles. The newer stuff relaly cannot exist with the older stuff selling. Even Midget was partially paid for by sales from older titles and DVDs.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 10-16-2008 at11:50:

well, glad to hear more is going on than i realized. Smile

hmmm ... thought i was on the DA email list ... know i'm on the LD list ... maybe i don't remember about All Day Sing because i already have it? guess that's what one gets when one gets disgusted and stays away for months on end. Red Face

so far i don't think i have any "fan copies" of stuff that is now available. i think i have most everything legit now, a lot from alternate sources that i have had for some time.

i got SA and Soon from the Greatest Hits, so Revelation is sort-of covered and i don't have any copy of it.

may have to check out random acts ...

where the heck did the VH CDs in the webstore come from? Confused

are they good-quality CD-Rs?
are they normal production-quality CDs?
if it was a reprint, you could have credited the counterfeiter with making it possible as a justifiable, non-slanderous jab since i highly doubt VH would have been redone without the counterfeit issue?! Tongue

(just curious, i already converted my cassette to MP3).

aside from maybe the boxset reissue (and of course imminent DFBB reissue), i would guess that Motorcycle and maybe Let's Spin would hold the most promise of quick payoff if exhorbitant licensing fees were not required?! I would get a CD of Motorcycle for sure (already have LS) because my tape was a bit worn before I converted it to MP3, but it's not too bad going down the road in the car cranked up.

i think Zoom Daddy CDs are finally getting scarcer and then there's the mysterious Outdoor Elvis that goes for $ on ebay but may not have quite the reissue demand?! i've not heard OE outside of songs on Berry Vest or fan tributes, but i wouldn't put it at the top of my list to acquire.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 10-16-2008 at12:00:

now this is crazy! i thought this was still available elsewhere?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0001PICSG/ref=sr_1_olp_12?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1224175988&sr=1-12
DA Shotgun Angel 25th anniversary edition for $199?!

better move this back to the top of the reprint list. i wish i had some extras to sell at that price.

Posted by Audiori J on 10-16-2008 at13:16:

quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Fan

i sure would defend file sharing among fans where no money is being made, though. i think any argument that reissue demand might be reduced would be offset by new fans made and interest generated. if you hide it under a bush no one will ever hear it and demand will eventually evaporate anyway.

This depends on a few factors. First if you are an unknown artist, you have nothing but gain from this type of promotion. The more people that hear the music the better. But, if an artist has been around for years and years and their fanbase basically has reached its size limit.. when you 'promote' the band by giving things away for free... you may have stopped aquiring new fans and are just cutting into existing sales. The balance tips, if you have 50,000 fans and put your album up for free and gain no new fans.. but get some of your existing fans to take the album for free instead of buying it.. you hurt yourself.

The other point that can be made on this issue is that 'promotion' should be up to the band to do. The whole point of releasing a single to the radio was to give everyone a sample to get them to buy the entire album. Now days fans are giving away the entire album, which does definately reduce the number of people that will pay for an album they can get entirely for free. This is why places like myspace let bands put up a few songs, and not their whole catalog, you want to give people a taste like those old ladies in supermarkets passing out a cookie, the hope is to get people to buy a whole bag.

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at15:55:

when it comes to things that have never been released, you're kidding yourself if you think die-hard fans don't want this stuff..... and if the band won't release it, people will get it however they can....

i had the two un-released black crowes discs years before they were finally released last year... and then i bought the official release.

point is, the die-hards will get that stuff, if they want it, no matter who is selling it, or giving it away. it's hard to feel like you're hurting the band, when you're buying something they refuse to sell.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at16:13:

Don't think anyone said the fans wouldn't want it... but should some guy be able to make money off of it?

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at17:41:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori

In the case of the selling of never-officially-released material (which is currently being done by these individuals), I don't know any artists that are ok with that and I can't understand why any fans would be.

the fans are ok with it because there's no other way to get it.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at19:20:

Fans are ok with some guy making money off of an artists unreleased material that they have no legal rights to use? So if some dude started selling DA live tapes on Ebay for $40 a pop, you would be ok with it?

I don't believe DA's fans would be ok with that at all. You're certainly not speaking for any fans I know.

Posted by sprinklerhead on 10-16-2008 at19:35:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J
But, if an artist has been around for years and years and their fanbase basically has reached its size limit..

The fanbase has reached its limit because there is very little promoting or marketing of the band. When I had Mike & Terry play at my house, I made a 3 song CD and passed it out as an invitation to come to a free show. From that, there were several people that bought full length CD's. If I could afford it, I would love to do that again but that was the most expensive show I ever went to. There has got to be more ways to market these guys and expand their audience. Give away a few songs if it will help expand their reach to other people.

Posted by audiori on 10-16-2008 at19:44:

Their fanbase does continue to grow, but not in numbers like it did in the early days. Its hard to get past almost no media attention, almost no radio play, rare new album releases, no tours and no large label advertising. The internet has helped tremendously, but its still a struggle.

What you did is a perfect way to do it. Make a compilation.. if they like it, they might buy something and you're not giving everything away for free. Promoting concerts and getting folks to come in is another great way. Trying to get your local radio stations to play them is another great way. CDs are sent to magazines and newspapers to review. There are new fans popping up all of the time because of efforts like these.. but not in huge numbers like it used to be unfortunately.

Posted by larryl on 10-16-2008 at20:50:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
Fans are ok with some guy making money off of an artists unreleased material that they have no legal rights to use? So if some dude started selling DA live tapes on Ebay for $40 a pop, you would be ok with it?

I don't believe DA's fans would be ok with that at all. You're certainly not speaking for any fans I know.

i AM a fan.....

i wouldn't pay $40 for ANYTHING on cassete.... and not for any live CD...

but i've paid for many boots of bands that i like a lot more than DA.... and i guarantee that people who are fans of DA have bought those on RR... that's why they sell them...