Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: Would CDs on demand ever be considered?

Posted by Audiori J on 05-28-2009 at12:55:

Except the license owner may not want that.

A lot of these owners have paid a lot of money for what they own and would rather not let their investment be released in just any old way. In fact, generally, the only deal you can work out is to pay the license fee which can be several thousand dollars. Even then they may have stipulations on what format you can release something in.

Basically these companies paid thousands for what they own. They are hoping to make back more than what they paid, thats why they bought it. So, usually they hope for some company to come along and pay the fee, put the CD into stores and advertise it. Kind of like what Arena Rock did.

They may not be so willing to work out a small deal with someone. Or at least not just any deal.

Posted by audiori on 05-28-2009 at12:59:

If a company licenses a title, it is an investment up front. If they remaster it, thats an up front investment. They're also going to want some of that money back right away. If downloads would take a year, thats not quite fast enough. CDs would make much more sense. If downloads could be in addition to the CDs, it would be fine - but typically companies negotiate download rights separately.

Terry does own the rights to a handful of titles and those are in the works. Downloads are always in the planning stages.

A few that I can mention...

- "Darn Floor" is already available as a download.
- DA 30th might see some digital distribution when its rereleased.
- There is an Imaginarium-related project being discussed that might make that stuff available as downloads.
- Midget and Buechner's might have digital options soon as well.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at13:10:

these companies aren't too bright then.

you'd think getting a little bit of money, would be better than getting none......

the world will just keep getting them off blogs, where no one makes any money.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at13:14:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
If a company licenses a title, it is an investment up front. If they remaster it, thats an up front investment. They're also going to want some of that money back right away. If downloads would take a year, thats not quite fast enough. CDs would make much more sense. If downloads could be in addition to the CDs, it would be fine - but typically companies negotiate download rights separately.

Terry does own the rights to a handful of titles and those are in the works. Downloads are always in the planning stages.

A few that I can mention...

- "Darn Floor" is already available as a download.
- DA 30th might see some digital distribution when its rereleased.
- There is an Imaginarium-related project being discussed that might make that stuff available as downloads.
- Midget and Buechner's might have digital options soon as well.

working on.......

i can record an album this weekend, and have it on it's own hosted site sunday night before i go to bed......

just host them on DA.com, with a CC link just like the store.....

Posted by Audiori J on 05-28-2009 at13:27:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
these companies aren't too bright then.

you'd think getting a little bit of money, would be better than getting none......

the world will just keep getting them off blogs, where no one makes any money.

They are extremely bright, thats why they have money and can buy these investments.

These things are a little more complicated than you just recording an album and sticking it up on a website.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at14:22:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J

quote:

They are extremely bright, thats why they have money and can buy these investments.

These things are a little more complicated than you just recording an album and sticking it up on a website.

the ones terry owns should not be ANY more complicated than that.

you're bright if you invest in something you can sell..... if no ones will buy your investment, then it wasn't a smart move, was it?

again... a small amount of money would be better than NO money, which is what they are making off those albums now.

Posted by audiori on 05-28-2009 at14:42:

Its also a matter of doing things right.

There is always the opportunity to take the quick route. M8 wanted to release anything and everything they could get their hands on. Any crappy old live tape. Any reissue. If anyone had let them, they would have put out regular albums with their crappy M8 logo plastered all over the covers. Remember Little Red Riding Hood? There were quite a few fans that were ok with it the way it was. The band hated it. It was "available," but it was embarassing. It ended up in a dumpster. Being "available" isn't enough if it looks and sounds like crap.

There is a desire right now not only to make things available.. bootleg the bootleggers *and* bring back the out of print albums, but also to do it right. Not just throw out copies of whats already been released. There is a desire to remaster it.. go back to the original tapes and clean them up, etc. Thats why any digital distribution is happening in connection to the deluxe reissue... just like Darn Floor.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:00:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
Its also a matter of doing things right.

There is always the opportunity to take the quick route. M8 wanted to release anything and everything they could get their hands on. Any crappy old live tape. Any reissue. If anyone had let them, they would have put out regular albums with their crappy M8 logo plastered all over the covers. Remember Little Red Riding Hood? There were quite a few fans that were ok with it the way it was. The band hated it. It was "available," but it was embarassing. It ended up in a dumpster. Being "available" isn't enough if it looks and sounds like crap.

There is a desire right now not only to make things available.. bootleg the bootleggers *and* bring back the out of print albums, but also to do it right. Not just throw out copies of whats already been released. There is a desire to remaster it.. go back to the original tapes and clean them up, etc. Thats why any digital distribution is happening in connection to the deluxe reissue... just like Darn Floor.

if that is the band's desire, then so be it.......

but i think it's a flawed model, and results in less copies being sold.

you can do digital only releases that would be extremely high quality, with zero dollars invested. (unless, of course, you pay someone to do the web design, or if you have to buy more bandwidth for your website). that would not be like the crappy m8 releases.

FWIW........

for the most part, i don't like re-mastered albums. i like the original. i understand that maybe the band is no long happy with it, for whatever reason....... but if i own both, i almost always listen to the originals.... i don't understand this desire to release something "different", when people just want the music.

unless, of course, the real goal is to get us all to buy something we already have 3 versions of, just because it's been redone in some way. in which case, well... i better stop there.

Posted by audiori on 05-28-2009 at15:08:

So.. you prefer the original "Daniel Amos" CD to the "DA30th?"
Or the original "Darn Floor" to the new deluxe "darn Floor?"
The original Pet Sounds to the Pet Sounds Sessions box?
The original Joshua Tree CD to the anniversary Edition?

As time goes by, technology improves. If I dig out a CD from the mid 80s for example, it sounds awful. I would love to hear stuff like Ideola's "Tribal Opera" remastered. Or "The Turning." Terry's "Briefing." Thats why I'm so looking forward to the new Beatles remasters... the original CDs were not even from the original master tapes! (with the exception of two albums)

Its not really about creating something new, its more about letting you hear what was there before that you couldn't hear because of the crappy mastering. Having said that, remastering can be overdone. It has to be done with care and a good ear.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:19:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
So.. you prefer the original "Daniel Amos" CD to the "DA30th?"
Or the original "Darn Floor" to the new deluxe "darn Floor?"
The original Pet Sounds to the Pet Sounds Sessions box?
The original Joshua Tree CD to the anniversary Edition?

As time goes by, technology improves. If I dig out a CD from the mid 80s for example, it sounds awful. I would love to hear stuff like Ideola's "Tribal Opera" remastered. Or "The Turning." Terry's "Briefing." Thats why I'm so looking forward to the new Beatles remasters... the original CDs were not even from the original master tapes! (with the exception of two albums)

Its not really about creating something new, its more about letting you hear what was there before that you couldn't hear because of the crappy mastering. Having said that, remastering can be overdone. It has to be done with care and a good ear.

I haven't bought any of those, except the Joshua tree one, and yes, I much prefer the original. I listened to the new one twice, and tossed it on a shelf.

I think I did listen to the Pet Sounds one one time, but wasn't impressed enough to buy it.

The orignal Daniel Amos is by far my favorite DA record, I wouldn't want it to sound any different. I love the sound it has.

Actually, I don't own either darn floor, but there are other reasons for that.

If I haven't heard that part, then I am not missing anything, because I don't even know it's there. It's like if I never knew DA existed, then I wouldn't be upset about it... because I wouldn't know there was anything to miss!

I don't see any need to mess with these records. I fell in love with the music I love, just the way it was originally. Why would I want it to sound different?

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:20:

BTW.....

I didn't buy ANY CDs until the mid-90s, so I don't know what mid-80s CDs sounded like.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:28:

again.....

the point would seem to be.....

better to have something to sell..... even if it's "just" the original, than to have people bootlegging it, and/or buying it used.

knott did that thing where he had hand decorated CD-R's..... that was pretty cool.....

the way to "bootleg the bootleggers" is not to put out high-priced deluxe versions that sell out quickly, but to keep something available at all times.

downloads accomplish this nicely.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:29:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
BTW.....

I didn't buy ANY CDs until the mid-90s, so I don't know what mid-80s CDs sounded like.

i guess that's not quite accurate...

i have choir stuff from then, and knott and 77s.... i just didn't buy it until the late 90s, early 2000s.....

they sound fine to me.... not that i ever play the actual CDs... they are all in a box somewhere.... all my music is on a series of hard drives....but the music still sounds fine.

Posted by audiori on 05-28-2009 at15:37:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
the way to "bootleg the bootleggers" is not to put out high-priced deluxe versions that sell out quickly, but to keep something available at all times.

Two different things actually. That phrase is what I call the CDs like "Hodgepodge," "All Day Sing," the Avocado Faultline-era collection we want to, etc. This is all stuff that is heavily bootlegged (including some selling) and we're putting it out at little expense to the band or the customer.

The goal is always to keep things available at all times, but sometimes things take you by surprise. DA30th sold faster than expected. We weren't really ready to do a bunch of printings right off the bat.. and when there was money there, it was being eaten up by other things (Midget, being one of them). Typically, things are reprinted before anyone knows they're selling out. We just couldn't quite make it work with that one.

Posted by audiori on 05-28-2009 at15:41:

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
I don't see any need to mess with these records. I fell in love with the music I love, just the way it was originally. Why would I want it to sound different?

Sometimes the original mastering job was so bad that you're not hearing the way it was originally. Often times, CDs are fulll of treble or some instruments become buried. Remastering is not about "messing" with the album, but restoring those sounds that you're missing.

I remember George Martin talking about how many painful hours they would pour into mixing a record. It would sound beautiful in the studio. Then they'd get the records back and they couldn't hear parts of it at all. Compared to what they heard in the studio, it would sound flat. My goal is to hear the closest thing to what the artist wanted it to be at the time that it was recorded.

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:55:

but it IS the way it was originally released...... which is how i heard it, and how i like it....

what if you pop in the new remastered beatles stuff, and think it sounds horrible, as i do with most remasters?

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at15:57:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori

quote:

Originally posted by larryl
the way to "bootleg the bootleggers" is not to put out high-priced deluxe versions that sell out quickly, but to keep something available at all times.

we'll just have to disagree i guess.

when 80% of a bands catalog is unavailable, i would think they would be looking at every possible avenue to make that no longer the case.

Posted by audiori on 05-28-2009 at16:03:

They are... but, they don't own 80% of the back catalog. Thats a big problem whether you do CDs or downloads.

I'll tell you what... you give me $60,000 and I'll make sure every DA title is back in print and/or available for download right now.

------------------------

How about we approach this from the other direction?

Let's say you made an album owned by another company. Its unavailable. What do you do?

Posted by larryl on 05-28-2009 at16:04:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
They are... but, they don't own 80% of the back catalog. Thats a big problem whether you do CDs or downloads.

I'll tell you what... you give me $60,000 and I'll make sure every DA title is back in print right now.

I already told you, I think paying that to release a DA record is ridiculous, and if I was Terry, I would encourage people to download it for free.

Much like Steve Taylor, Third Day, and numerous others have done.