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--- Cornerstone 2004 (http://www.danielamos.com/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=4732)
Posted by DaLe on 01-05-2004 at15:35:
Cornerstone 2004
Lost Dogs
)
I know these lists always change a little in the next SiX months but
here it is...
C0RNERSTONE 2004 BANDS
a few I would like to see,
I hope they are all on the same day or two...
Posted by Stuart Pedasso on 01-05-2004 at15:40:
No Roe, 77s, Choir, DA. Sad.
But then again, Stonehill's not there either.
No Keaggy.
No Theo.
Oh well. The dogs are there which is good. Maybe they'll be flogging some new tunes. Now that Derri is a mega star in a big Nashville mansion maybe he'll drag the other two along to financial security. Name it and claim it boys!
Posted by John Foxe on 01-05-2004 at17:56:
The Dogs are nice but I sure would like to see at least Terry and Theo. Since J.J. Thompson is such a big fan of Terry, I figured he would hold some sway.
Theo, were you still planning on being there?
Posted by jeffrey k. on 01-05-2004 at19:03:
JJT (John Thompson) told me that this year they were going to scale the festival back, and in order to do that they have to not book several bands. In other words, from what he told me they set out to book functioning, touring bands that would be a draw overall for the festival. That is in no way a slight to Daniel Amos, Choir, or the 77's, but the festival had to book bands that were active more then once or twice a year...or two years....and book bands that would bring in more then a handful of fans. Again, not a slight to anyone, it's just the reality of running a major festival that lost money last year. Again, ALL of this could change before the fest, but this was the goal...scale back, and bring people back...
I noticed far down the list that The Alarm are listed as playing. Since they broke up in the early 90's, I can only guess that this is the "Mike Peters backed by other guys who all play Alarm songs" version of the band, and not the actual Alarm.
All in all though...I am pretty bored with the line-up...but hey, I am not a target demographic, not in a youth-group, and would rather go on a real vacation then spend the money it takes to go...BUT....since I will probably be there in a "label" capacity, this is what I'd see:
Bill Mallonee
Ester Drang
Lost Dogs
Over the Rhine
Pedro The Lion
The Alarm
Woven Hand (16 Horsepower)
but then that leaves a LOT of free time....
jeffrey k.
Posted by audiori on 01-05-2004 at19:26:
| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
That is in no way a slight to Daniel Amos, Choir, or the 77's, but the festival had to book bands that were active more then once or twice a year...or two years....and book bands that would bring in more then a handful of fans.
|
The problem with this thinking is that a lot of people (like us)
travel to Cstone every year to see the bands that *don't*
tour very often ... like DA, Choir, the 77s, etc. Evidence of this
is the large numbers of people on the 77s list/DADL/DAmb/77Board
that are saying they probably won't go this year because its
just the Dogs. When those bands play, people come from all
over the world
just to see
them.
We've always sort of counted on Cstone to bring bands
like that... if they stop bringing those bands in, its going
to severely hurt the appeal of the fest in my opinion. Of course,
as you say, we're probably not the target audience... but its
a shame that they seem to think that way.
Posted by Theo on 01-05-2004 at19:48:
Foxxe, SP, and others
It is SO VERY KIND of you all to name me as a "would like to see." I can't begin to tell you how much that means to me. SERIOUSLY.
I know that JT is pushing as much as he can on my account, but JT is rather out of this business now and is on to other matters--I don't know just how much he will be able to pull off.
I had truly hoped that I would be able to perform at least once more at this very cool event. I'd hoped to perform again with Elbel and Oliver backing me--as did last year. But I don't know--I just don't see it happening. It is God's call--not to be "whatever" but it really is.
We shall see. If there IS a way for you all to mention me, to vote for me--as it were--then please do.
Thank you. I am honored.
Posted by jeffrey k. on 01-05-2004 at21:20:
| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
That is in no way a slight to Daniel Amos, Choir, or the 77's, but the festival had to book bands that were active more then once or twice a year...or two years....and book bands that would bring in more then a handful of fans.
|
The problem with this thinking is that a lot of people (like us)
travel to Cstone every year to see the bands that *don't*
tour very often ... like DA, Choir, the 77s, etc. Evidence of this
is the large numbers of people on the 77s list/DADL/DAmb/77Board
that are saying they probably won't go this year because its
just the Dogs. When those bands play, people come from all
over the world just to see them.
We've always sort of counted on Cstone to bring bands
like that... if they stop bringing those bands in, its going
to severely hurt the appeal of the fest in my opinion. Of course,
as you say, we're probably not the target audience... but its
a shame that they seem to think that way. |
I'd agree that it's a lot of fans in one place....to us....but in the grand scheme of the fest it's maybe 500-700 people out of the 18,000 plus people that attend each year. (This based on estimates JT was taking last year.) From what I was told the festival decided that either all the bands (save for the big name acts) would have to take way less money, or they would book fewer bands and focus on quality over quantity. Granted, everyone will have a different opinion about what "quality" is, so it's really a no-win situation for many fans.
I agree it's a crappy situation, but I also have nothing to do with it! I've gone round and round with John (in a good way...we are close) over stuff with the fest, and the bottom line is that many of the bands simply don't draw like they used to, and while they are still vital and loved, the fest simply can't afford to book them all, or even most of them.
The truth is, we aren't a target audience, and have't been for some time. From what I gather, the fest realized that in order to sustain and grow, they would have to market to youth groups and teens, since the majority of the folks showing up between 99 and last year were from youth groups, and were teens and young twenties. So they book the bands that the kids vote for and want to see. It sorta glows with warmth, but it also ensures that 5-10 years from now there will still be a festival, so in that sense it makes sense.
I suppose this is what they call progress.
BTW, I am in no way speaking for the fest, or anyone involved such as JJT, I'm just repeating what I was told a couple months ago.
jeffrey k.
Posted by audiori on 01-06-2004 at01:15:
Yeah... we understand.
I think there are some major flaws in their logic. The main one
being, Cornerstone has always been what the other Christian fests
were not. People would drive from all over the country for that fest
(or fly in from all over the world)... people had a loyalty to it. There
were bands playing that would play nowhere else... special events,
tributes, etc. As Cstone becomes the same thing that Creation is,
the loyalty will fade. People can goto any festival in their area and
see the same thing. (POD may draw a lot of kids... but people won't
fly in from Australia to see them at Cstone.) They will no longer be
that 'special' festival, they will be just the same thing the others are.
And the closer they become to being like the other fests, I think they
will see a large portion of the festivals committed following decide to
stay home. And they will be left with maybe a younger audience, but
one from the midwest only and most likely not a real loyal following.
Because they will be seeing bands they can see at local concerts and
youth rallies. Cstone will no longer be offering them something that
the other festivals won't.
As an example of what I am talking about, the company I work for was
doing really well for a while...they started expanding and building new
factories. They grew too big, their customer base was not loyal and when
the market went south. They had to start closing factories and almost
went belly up. They learned not to be like the other companies that sell
the same things, but to offer things that the competators don't.
Special products, so there is always a market. This company had to learn
the hard way. In the short term it looks good to offer what everyone
else is offering, the mainstream, and in the short term you will make
money. But, in the longterm it's very risky... and not good for your future.
Because if people have a choice as to where they get their mainstream
product they won't always choose you.
And yes, the attendance for these bands was down last year. But, I
would argue that was largely due to some poor business decisions. And
an incorrect focus. We told JT before Cornerstone last year that it would
be a small year for them and it was. We know exactly why that was.
(Quite frankly, most regular Cstone DA fans skipped last year too...
because DA didn't play... )
But, it's all sort of like telling Christian radio or Christian music magazines
not to sell out and go 24 hour a day Stephen Curtis. The 'business-men'
in charge have their direction, and thats that. It's too bad.
Posted by John Foxe on 01-06-2004 at07:59:
More feedback
You gentlemen all hit the nail on the head.
But I will mention one more thing that I mentioned to JJT: the prices were way too high and if nothing changes it will price me out of future cstones. (From his response though we're just not going to see eye-to-eye on this.)
I understand the economics of things and am willing to pay my fair share. But I brought 4 people (plus myself) for a part of Thursday and part of Friday, and was charged a $450 entrance fee. That really hurt. Then to see apparent ministry paradoxes was troubling. Here we were with Bono and the big push to feed the poor, served up to us on an expensive Jumbotron and anniversary celebration. Cstone used to be different - rawer, plainer, consciously un-mainstream (if that's a word.)
Then the knockout punch in '04 is to not see Terry, DA, Theo, 77s, Choir, etc., much as I love the Dogs. What is there for a fan like myself to make the long trip, money, and environment worthwhile? Not much.
I'm sorry but it looks like for the first time in several years I will miss the fest.
Posted by sprinklerhead on 01-06-2004 at09:38:
RE: More feedback
How could C-Stone have lost money last year. It appeared to me that their were about 10 bands at the fest. Granted they changed their name at every stage they played at but they still sounded the same.
Could be a sign of my age but there seemed to be very little variety. Too many angry sounding bands that just yell at you. Looks like this year will be similar.
Boy, I do sound like I am getting old.....
Posted by jeffrey k. on 01-06-2004 at11:00:
| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
Yeah... we understand.
I think there are some major flaws in their logic. The main one
being, Cornerstone has always been what the other Christian fests
were not.....And yes, the attendance for these bands was down last year. But, I would argue that was largely due to some poor business decisions. And an incorrect focus. We told JT before Cornerstone last year that it would be a small year for them and it was. We know exactly why that was.
(Quite frankly, most regular Cstone DA fans skipped last year too...
because DA didn't play... ) |
I agree with you, I really do. John and I have had many a long talk over the way the fest has changed in the past 5 years. The funny thing is, most of the people really close to the fest (staff) don't really see it as all that different. They seem to take into account all the art tents, speakers, movie stuff, etc., as being what really sets it apart from other festivals. In the end though, it really is a drag how much stuff really has changed in terms of the musical focus. This years fest line-up reminds me of....I think it was 99 when I think I went to one show a day....something like that....the years run together.
jeffrey k.
Posted by jeffrey k. on 01-06-2004 at11:21:
RE: More feedback
| quote: |
Originally posted by John Foxe
I understand the economics of things and am willing to pay my fair share. But I brought 4 people (plus myself) for a part of Thursday and part of Friday, and was charged a $450 entrance fee. That really hurt. Then to see apparent ministry paradoxes was troubling. Here we were with Bono and the big push to feed the poor, served up to us on an expensive Jumbotron and anniversary celebration. Cstone used to be different - rawer, plainer, consciously un-mainstream (if that's a word.) |
John...while I agree with the cost of the fest being too high, there is one thing I think you may be missing. The message from Bono wasn't a "ministry paradox." In fact, his message wasn't even about feeding the poor. His message was taped on behalf of DATA, the organization he founded with Bob Geldof in an effort to alert the world to the staggering suffering that is taking place in Africa due to the AIDS epidemic. Every day an average of 6500 people die from the AIDS virus in Africa. Every day. An average of 9500 people become infected with HIV every day in Africa. In addition to that, an average of 1,400 newborn babies are infected during childbirth or by their mothers' milk..every day. As it stands today, more than 17 million Africans have died from AIDS and another 30 million are infected with the HIV virus, approximately 1.5 million of whom are children. Bono's entire message was simply to alert the church to the crisis that is happening in Africa and to motivate them to DO something about it. He didn't ask for money, and DATA doesn't ask people to sign up and "sponsor a child".....not that there is anything wrong with that. The whole point of DATA is to raise awareness about the crisis, and then to motivate people to go to their governments and ask them to use money that is already there to help these people.
Given the fact that the church as a whole still seems to view AIDS as a gay disease, (and then wants to do nothing about it as many seem to think it's "God's punishment") I'd say that Cornerstone took a real risk airing the message and showed they still could be "different - rawer, plainer, and consciously un-mainstream" if even for just a few moments.
Anyway, sorry for the lecture, but I read your post last July and it bothered me then, and it bothers me now.
I agree with virtually everything else you said though.
jeffrey k.
Posted by audiori on 01-06-2004 at12:09:
Yes and if memory serves, Bono's reason for the film addressing
Cornerstone was that Bush pledged a LOT of money for Africa
aids releif and he wanted everyone to contact their congressmen
to make sure the money didn't get 'stuck' in congress.
It doesn't matter which political party you are, Bush pledged it,
Bono just didn't want it to be stopped by anyone.
Along with all the other Problems Africa has regarding aids is
the HUGE, MASSIVE amount of orphans it has created.
But anyway, we agree with you all about Cornerstone. I hope it does
not become one of those fests that we don't go to every year.
Another point to be made is if they think the books and seminars,
art tents and such is what seperates them from the other fests...
do you think the new young POD crowd they are targetting care
about that stuff? The people that do care about that stuff are the old
family of Cornerstone attendees who they are alienating.
Don't get me wrong, I think they need to attract new people,
but not at the expense of the people that have been faithful to the fest
over the years. There needs to be a balance to that, not a total change
in direction. Thats how they always did that in the past.. they would
have a certain number of "big names" on the main stage... then
the tents would have the more unique events, rare performances
from non-touring artists, unplugged shows, tribute shows, jams, etc.
Posted by jeffrey k. on 01-06-2004 at12:39:
| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
Yes and if memory serves, Bono's reason for the film addressing
Cornerstone was that Bush pledged a LOT of money for Africa
aids releif and he wanted everyone to contact their congressmen
to make sure the money didn't get 'stuck' in congress.
It doesn't matter which political party you are, Bush pledged it,
Bono just didn't want it to be stopped by anyone.
Along with all the other Problems Africa has regarding aids is
the HUGE, MASSIVE amount of orphans it has created.. |
Yes...all this is correct. Basically Bono went out and pounded the pavement, visited colleges, met with political leaders worldwide to ask them to give financial aid to Africa. With Bush, he pledged the money, and you are correct that Bono really wanted to rally support so that it would actually go through.
| quote: |
Another point to be made is if they think the books and seminars,
art tents and such is what seperates them from the other fests...
do you think the new young POD crowd they are targetting care
about that stuff? The people that do care about that stuff are the old
family of Cornerstone attendees who they are alienating. |
No...I don't think the younger crowd cares much about the books, seminars, art tents, etc. My HUGE beef is the junk they sell in all the tents. Last year JT had requested 3 tables so the bands, Lo-Fidelity, and Theo could all be represented under one roof, and we ended up getting like what..one table...packed between some crabby lady who braided hair and some anti-semetic group that sent people to Isriael during the war to make sure the Israeli gov. didn't use the "distraction of the war" to practice mass genocide on the Muslims. (Yeah..I'm not kidding...these people were nuts.)
dang....now I'm all fired up thinking about those anti-semetic guys....
jeffrey
Posted by John Foxe on 01-06-2004 at13:38:
Yeah I know
Jeffrey, I know my post bothered you last time, and I'm sorry for that. I don't want to appear insensitive, and I do have some idea of where you're coming from on this issue (from what's on your web site.)
I'm also sorry if I came on a little too strong in that most recent post. We all know how the web works, and what's really on our hearts sometimes comes out in our posts sounding rude or angry or just plain cruddy when it wasn't intended that way. We're just not going to quite agree on that one perspective, and that's okay, hopefully we can extend a little grace to each other.
Truly, I WANT reasons to come to the fest. But I also want to be a wise steward of God's time and money as well. I'm an optimist and hope things will change for the better. In the meantime, I think I will pray for wisdom regarding these cstone issues.
Thanks for your heart on this.
- John
Posted by zippetydoodaddy on 01-06-2004 at15:15:
The Alarm
Me and Elbel went and saw The Alarm when they played here in LA and they are Mike Peters + some brits posing as The Alarm, but they really do sound like the old guys. It's a great show and if you do go to the BIG show, see them.
That's all I have to say about that.
Posted by DaLe on 01-06-2004 at16:16:
if the Alarm & the Lost Dogs play the same day and at different times
I will probably drive down for a day...
I hope that the schedule lines up that way
I saw them on the Strength tour.
November 18, 1985 @ First Avenue, Minneapolis, Minn. Great show!
Posted by audiori on 01-06-2004 at16:18:
Hehe....yeah I get fired up too.
And yup, every festival we've ever done....the tables were messed up.
Last year they actually gave our table away to some kids selling something,
on the very first day....like before noon. They said that someone had
told them that we had already been there and left... so they gave
the table away. We brought all our boxes in and had nowhere to put
them or set up for a few hours. Nice.
And the junk...yeah...Pink Nun had a table remember.
I still have my cassette of the Alarm "Declaration", I used to listen
to it all the time. I think I have a couple more releases of theirs,
maybe "Strength" ?
But anyway, I am used to this kind of stuff... seems like the world is
bent on doing the very opposite of what is in their best interest.
And some 'businessmen' as I called them before are experts at that,
they've turned it into an art form. Experts in "Worldy wisdom", if thats
not an oxymoron I don't know what is.
The same kind of 'businessmen' that tried to turn Sam (Leslie) Phillips into
a dancing pop Amy Grant wannabe...to refrence another thread.
The same kind of 'businessmen' that want christian rock bands
to "play stupider" to make a Christian hit as Mark Heard put it, hehe.
Oh well....
Posted by DwDunphy on 01-06-2004 at17:35:
Make a Christian hit
Point of reference - I've never been to Cornestone. I've never been to a Christian music festival. Were it not for home video, I'd have never seen any of my favorite acts live.
That said, if I had the money and flexible schedule and knew how to drive to Illinois, I wouldn't go this year. I mean, there's Bill Mallonee and the Dogs and, yes, Theo, whom I'd really like to meet someday. But on a roster of how many acts, three doesn't justify the expenses. It just doesn't.
The fest is looking for crossover acts like P.O.D. and Chevelle to draw in crossover attention, which is not a bad thing. In fact, these bands are unlikely to draw fans into a wholly Christian atmosphere at any venue but Cornerstone. This might be the one shot at ministry these bands have. More power to them if that is the main intention.
The sad fact is that most of my favorite groups are from a time period that has passed. Most of these bands are still relevant and still make great music, but they don't fit into the youth culture like they did once. Think Dylan at Ozzfest. Think Robbie Robertson at WarpTour. Open minded people would go to that show, but the focal point is not necessarily for the open-minded, but the closed-minded who need a slight crack in the cranium.
As always, I hope powerful and wonderful things happen at Cornerstone, but if the message is the most important thing, then we have to accept the inevitable conclusion that the messenger must relate to the crowd at hand. It's not our "special secret".
Heck, I wish I could have seen DA, Dogs, 77s and Steve Taylor... but that's a different time.
DwD
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RE: Cornerstone 2004