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Posted by iota on 07-05-2002 at19:09:

  Jesus drank grape-juice?

Ok I have pretty much been surrounded by rabid fundies lately. I haver heard something so ridiculous, I just don't know how to respond. Is there any historical credibility to the notion that in Jesus' day the wine was so watered down it was the equivilant of grape juice today? Is there any reputable historian who would support this. It just seems so ridiculous. I'm visiting my friend in a christian rehab ranch. The guy who owns it is leading a bible study and we get to John ch. 2. He asks who in the room believes Jesus gave the people alcohaul. I and my friend raise our hands. Then he goes on to tell us that "his Jesus" didn't give them any alcohaulic beverage because Jesus wouldn't do that. Because alcohaul is bad. And if any believers want to try and be a "sipping saint" they are only fooling themselves blah blah blah blah. Then he says wine back in those days was only grape juice. Which seems ridiculous, because Paul exorts us to not be drunk with wine but with the spirit, so obviously back then wine could get you drunk. Are there any scriptures that anyone knows of that speaks of wine in a favorable light?

Any help with this bizarre subject would be greatly appreciated.

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Posted by BigDork on 07-05-2002 at22:53:

 

quote:

Originally posted by iota I haver heard something so ridiculous, I just don't know how to respond. Is there any historical credibility to the notion that in Jesus' day the wine was so watered down it was the equivilant of grape juice today?

I have heard that before too when I was a kid. I haven't heard it since. I don't think it was watered down, but I don't know for sure. Sounds highly unlikely.


BD

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Posted by Jim Muglia on 07-05-2002 at23:10:

  wine

Greetings,

Whether it was watered-down or not, I say have nothing to do with it. All it can do is make you have one too many, make you say soemthing you'll regret, or get you too relaxed around your ladyfriend.

If I drank anyhting, which I don't, I'd probably have one tiny glass after a big dinner maybe.

But, I'm really not an expert on what the Bible specifically says or doesn't say about alcoholic beverages. Since I personally have absolutely no desire to drink, its a non-issue for me. I do find it hard to believe that God would judge anyone for a glass of wine at a wedding or a glass of champagne on New Year's though. I'd think that two or three glasses would be asking for trouble though.

Just my humble opinion.
Jim

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Posted by ™ on 07-06-2002 at00:28:

  check it out

Google search for Water Into Wine

articles include;

Wine and the bible
WINE, and a sense of humor for that matter, were given to us by a beneficent God who knew from time to time we would need them. The Bible has a lot to say about wine. In fact, the grapevine and its primary product, wine, is mentioned more than any other plant.

or how bout dis?
Google search for Wine and Christians Christianity

A Little Wine for the Soul

The Bible says drunkenness is a sin (Gal. 5:21).
But is occasional social drinking OK for Christians?

By J. Lawrence Burkholder | Although alcohol is by no means a central scriptural issue, the Bible alludes to its use. The problem emerged in Jewish experience after the conquest of Canaan. The land of Canaan flowed not only with milk and honey but with wine as well. The hills of Judea were ideal for vineyards, and so the Hebrews, whose nomadic past had shielded them, had to come to terms with alcohol as a part of ordinary life. In general, they regarded wine as a gift, and they praised God for it (Ps. 104:14-15), but saw excessive drinking as foolish (Prov. 20:1).

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Posted by Dr Rich on 07-06-2002 at11:06:

 

the gospels plainly state the Jesus drank wine. (if someone drinks grape juice he is not called a drunk.)
d
p.s. I hate fundies

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Posted by BigDork on 07-06-2002 at12:34:

 

quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rich the gospels plainly state the Jesus drank wine. (if someone drinks grape juice he is not called a drunk.) d p.s. I hate fundies

hate? that's a little strong isn't it?


BD

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Posted by Lost Canine on 07-06-2002 at12:59:

 

It was fermented wine. You can learn much more from studying the culture of Jesus day than the Bible on such issues as this.
LK-9

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Posted by Dr Rich on 07-06-2002 at13:37:

 

quote:

Originally posted by BigDork quote: Originally posted by Dr Rich the gospels plainly state the Jesus drank wine. (if someone drinks grape juice he is not called a drunk.) d p.s. I hate fundies hate? that's a little strong isn't it? BD

well ya... I agree.
I was just trying to make a point.

It is the fundie types who kill and destroy in the name of religion however

all the religions got 'em too

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Posted by Dr Rich on 07-06-2002 at13:38:

 

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Canine It was fermented wine. You can learn much more from studying the culture of Jesus day than the Bible on such issues as this. LK-9

yes, also part of the miracle of wine is that wines takes time... unlike say... bathtub gin

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Posted by Joey T. on 07-06-2002 at14:59:

 

quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rich [QUOTE]Originally posted by Lost Canine It was fermented wine. You can learn much more from studying the culture of Jesus day than the Bible on such issues as this. LK-9

quote:

yes, also part of the miracle of wine is that wines takes time... unlike say... bathtub gin

LOL!

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Posted by Lost Canine on 07-06-2002 at23:35:

 

quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rich quote: Originally posted by Lost Canine It was fermented wine. You can learn much more from studying the culture of Jesus day than the Bible on such issues as this. LK-9 yes, also part of the miracle of wine is that wines takes time... unlike say... bathtub gin

Doc,
Get the bathtub gin going!

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Posted by John Foxe on 07-07-2002 at07:49:

  Do you really, Dr. Rich?

Call me a "fundie", sir.

What fundies generally hold in common is our belief in certain basic tenets of the faith that are timeless and unalterable. Things I hope the majority of people on this board believe. Things like salvation by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone. Other basics like Sola Scriptura, verbal plenary view of scripture, and literal Heaven and Hell. Is that really so radical?

Fundamentalism is a broad brush that encompasses many things, most good, some not so good. Most do not subscribe to the grape juice theory, belief in KJV only, etc. Most try to base ourselves solely in Scripture and not the traditions of men. It's when some fundies deviate from Scripture and/or twist it that they come up with some of these goofy notions.

Still, I am one for I pray the right reasons...

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Posted by BigDork on 07-07-2002 at10:44:

 

quote:

Originally posted by John Foxe Call me a "fundie", sir. Still, I am one for I pray the right reasons...

thanks John

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Posted by Dr Rich on 07-07-2002 at13:49:

 

quote:

Originally posted by John Foxe Call me a "fundie", sir. What fundies generally hold in common is our belief in certain basic tenets of the faith that are timeless and unalterable. Things I hope the majority of people on this board believe. Things like salvation by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone. Other basics like Sola Scriptura, verbal plenary view of scripture, and literal Heaven and Hell. Is that really so radical? Fundamentalism is a broad brush that encompasses many things, most good, some not so good. Most do not subscribe to the grape juice theory, belief in KJV only, etc. Most try to base ourselves solely in Scripture and not the traditions of men. It's when some fundies deviate from Scripture and/or twist it that they come up with some of these goofy notions. Still, I am one for I pray the right reasons...

I think (or at least hope) that you would not try to force your beliefs on others thru violence.

those are the extreme ones that bother me.

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Posted by BigDork on 07-07-2002 at17:06:

 

quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rich I think (or at least hope) that you would not try to force your beliefs on others thru violence. those are the extreme ones that bother me.

hey doc....come here





I've got something for ya....

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Posted by John Foxe on 07-07-2002 at20:23:

  Violence

Hmmm, it seems very odd that fundamentalists might try to force their ideas on others through violence. Are you perchance referring to those of the Muslim persuasion? Certainly they do it every day through persecution and death. I'm not aware, however, of any instances where Christian fundamentalists try to do this in any direct way.

Are you referring to those wackos who want to blow up abortion clinics? They are not Christians IMHO. Are you referring to televangelists? Terry has written many songs about these guys - the evil that's manifest and the sheep who strangely enough continue to follow even after these charlatans are exposed. I sure hope you don't equate fundies with that sad lot. Most of those guys are Charismatic in their theology anyway.

Bottom line for me, it goes back to the Will and Word of God: what are we really supposed to do as Christians? Are we to conquer the world through some means, violent or otherwise? Not in the fundie theology by any means! Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical, and He doesn't need my help (or anyone else) to help Him bring it in. The real fundamentalists focus on a few basic theological unalterables such as those I mentioned in an earlier post. We leave the rest to the conscience and working out of salvation of the believer.

Besides, how in the world could a fundie like myself be a rabid, fanatical DA fan for the last 22 years? How is it that a sizable portion of our youth group go to Cornerstone every year? Believe me, we're really not that stiff!

Peace and love to you brother

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Posted by Bubba on 07-07-2002 at22:20:

 

J.F., you seem a little too uptight to be a DA fan. Maybe you should try drinking some of Dr. Rich's bathtub gin?

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Posted by John Foxe on 07-08-2002 at08:06:

  Nahhh...

Hee, hee, but seriously folks, I have no problem with moderate consumption of alcohol. That's Biblical, no matter what that other "fundie" guy said. Let that fart smeller (oops, smart feller) try to find proof in the good book that we need to be teetotallers. It just ain't there. And isn't that what I keep going back to, like a broken record?

Uptight? Nahhh, I just get the BVD's in a little bunch when we get lumped into this category of self-righteous legalists who want to use violence to make everyone else agree with them.

I want the full truth to be manifest. Wouldn't you do the same thing if you were in a similar boat, if only to set the record straight?

Seems only fair, doesn't it?

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Posted by Woggy on 07-08-2002 at12:08:

  Hey, TM

Good stuff there, my friend.

I'm thinking, however, we should all go out and purchase THIS little item.......

God's Gadgets??

quote:

Originally posted by ™ WINE, and a sense of humor for that matter, were given to us by a beneficent God who knew from time to time we would need them. The Bible has a lot to say about wine. In fact, the grapevine and its primary product, wine, is mentioned more than any other plant.

You can find all sorts of goodies right here:

More!

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Posted by Woggy on 07-08-2002 at12:13:

  Mr Muglia

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Muglia Greetings, Whether it was watered-down or not, I say have nothing to do with it. All it can do is make you have one too many, make you say soemthing you'll regret, or get you too relaxed around your ladyfriend. If I drank anyhting, which I don't, I'd probably have one tiny glass after a big dinner maybe. But, I'm really not an expert on what the Bible specifically says or doesn't say about alcoholic beverages. Since I personally have absolutely no desire to drink, its a non-issue for me. I do find it hard to believe that God would judge anyone for a glass of wine at a wedding or a glass of champagne on New Year's though. I'd think that two or three glasses would be asking for trouble though. Just my humble opinion. Jim

Very commendable lifestyle choice, Jim.

Not everyone would agree with you, however. Some can handle two or three, some can't. Some should NEVER EVER drink, for others, it's okay. Like everything else we do, it's a personal issue..............does it affect your home and family? Don't do it. Will it cause your brother to stumble? Keep away from him whilst you're doing what you're doing.

I know Christians who drink, I know those who don't. Most who do are very non-judgemental about it, and they know that too much of a good thing ISN'T good. I enjoy a cold beer on a hot day - maybe even two or three (only, not in rapid succession ) I don't feel God convicting me to stop that, either.

To each his/her own.