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Posted by jc on 07-08-2002 at12:56:
a point
DAMbers-
the phrisees called Jesus a winebibber
not a grapejuice bibber
seems it was fermented in that context anyway.
As for me- I have "imbibed" more in the past few months than in the past 20 years. (Felt like "I'm a big boy, and can do as I please")
A glass of wine one night at dinner (in April)
a beer at a concert (April)
and a beer at a reception. (May)
The last one was with my kids- and they were disappointed (we talked at length about it) having not seen me ever imbibe.
I was easily able to tell them" You will NEVER see dad do that again. "-
so for the sake of family- I won't.
If your decision is not as easy as mine..perhaps you should reexamine it.
JiMIny
Posted by Jevon the Tall on 07-08-2002 at13:47:
Water in the Wine
Ah, the ever popular Grape Juice Thread. I won't bash the fundies, cause God's house is a big house (see Sacred Cows) with many rooms, and possibly one or two flush toilets.
First off, it's always important to take in to account the norm of the day. Wine was basically the staple drink of choice, along with what we now fondly refer to as "Beer" (mmmm beer).
Even up to the middle ages, wine was essentially served with every meal to people of all ages. Two decanters. One wine the other water. The reason is one of simple health. Water quality was marginal at the best of times. Think about it. People bathed in the river, they peed (also poop, but I didn't want to be gross) in the river, they washed in the river, the threw their garbage in the river, they'd float their dead on the river, and on and on. No wonder the water wasn't too good to drink. Wine had the quality of being a good bug killer, and when mixed with water was somewhat pure.
There's a fair amount of documentation on those who would drink themselves stupid as being, well, stupid. In social circles, one mixed the wine with water, unless you were drinking to get drunk.
So in terms of it being no stronger than grape juice, it's a reach, but I can see where they're going. Still it was wine, made from grapes.
PS Real men drank the beer, which was not mixed with water (mmmmmm beer).
JtT
Posted by Woggy on 07-08-2002 at14:08:
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, beer
he he he
Posted by Dr Rich on 07-08-2002 at16:13:
| quote: |
Originally posted by John Foxe
Hmmm, it seems very odd that fundamentalists might try to force their ideas on others through violence. Are you perchance referring to those of the Muslim persuasion? Certainly they do it every day through persecution and death. I'm not aware, however, of any instances where Christian fundamentalists try to do this in any direct way.
Are you referring to those wackos who want to blow up abortion clinics? They are not Christians IMHO. Are you referring to televangelists? Terry has written many songs about these guys - the evil that's manifest and the sheep who strangely enough continue to follow even after these charlatans are exposed. I sure hope you don't equate fundies with that sad lot. Most of those guys are Charismatic in their theology anyway.
Bottom line for me, it goes back to the Will and Word of God: what are we really supposed to do as Christians? Are we to conquer the world through some means, violent or otherwise? Not in the fundie theology by any means! Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical, and He doesn't need my help (or anyone else) to help Him bring it in. The real fundamentalists focus on a few basic theological unalterables such as those I mentioned in an earlier post. We leave the rest to the conscience and working out of salvation of the believer.
Besides, how in the world could a fundie like myself be a rabid, fanatical DA fan for the last 22 years? How is it that a sizable portion of our youth group go to Cornerstone every year? Believe me, we're really not that stiff!
Peace and love to you brother
|
There are plenty of fundie christians in America who are violent (most people in the KKK would consider themselves good Christian brothers)
yes and the Muslim religion has plenty of the violent fundies as well.
I seemed to have touched a nerve... I am sorry if I am. Also I think anyone who can get into DA is most likely on the right track
Peace & Love to you as well my friend & brother,
dennis
Posted by BigDork on 07-08-2002 at17:37:
I COuLDn't REaaadd aanY ofThis THRead onnn th AcCOunT of Beeeinnng too DRunk TO =CaRE
hic
DB
Posted by Joey T. on 07-08-2002 at18:09:
| quote: |
Originally posted by BigDork
I COuLDn't REaaadd aanY ofThis THRead onnn th AcCOunT of Beeeinnng too DRunk TO =CaRE
hic
DB
|
DB = Drunk boy?
Posted by Dr Rich on 07-08-2002 at19:20:
| quote: |
Originally posted by BigDork
I COuLDn't REaaadd aanY ofThis THRead onnn th AcCOunT of Beeeinnng too DRunk TO =CaRE
hic
DB
|
want some bathtub gin?
Posted by Über Parrot on 07-08-2002 at22:06:
| quote: |
Originally posted by Woggy
Good stuff there, my friend.
I'm thinking, however, we should all go out and purchase THIS little item.......
God's Gadgets??
|
Thank you for the link Woggy, I purchased several of them for my family and friends.
Ü
Posted by Über Parrot on 07-08-2002 at22:17:
| quote: |
Originally posted by jc
DAMbers-
the phrisees called Jesus a winebibber
not a grapejuice bibber
seems it was fermented in that context anyway.
As for me- I have "imbibed" more in the past few months than in the past 20 years. (Felt like "I'm a big boy, and can do as I please")
A glass of wine one night at dinner (in April)
a beer at a concert (April)
and a beer at a reception. (May)
The last one was with my kids- and they were disappointed (we talked at length about it) having not seen me ever imbibe.
I was easily able to tell them" You will NEVER see dad do that again. "-
so for the sake of family- I won't.
If your decision is not as easy as mine..perhaps you should reexamine it.
JiMIny
|
Jiminy, you have stolen my thunder so to speak. Christ did drink wine, and yes is was the kind you can get drunk on.
Luke 7:34
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
He was there with the sinners, but not a sinner Himself. So drinking wine can not be a sin.
And Jesus knew what was good wine and what was bad wine...
John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.
...I'm sure you could get quite a buzz off Jesus' wine.
Thank you for being a wonderful example to your children. Even though it's ok to drink, sometimes it's not the right thing to do.
Peace
Ü
Posted by Woggy on 07-09-2002 at09:26:
Ah HAAAAAAAAAAA
| quote: |
Originally posted by jc
As for me- I have "imbibed" more in the past few months than in the past 20 years. (Felt like "I'm a big boy, and can do as I please")
A glass of wine one night at dinner (in April)
a beer at a concert (April)
and a beer at a reception. (May)
The last one was with my kids- and they were disappointed (we talked at length about it) having not seen me ever imbibe.
I was easily able to tell them" You will NEVER see dad do that again. "-
so for the sake of family- I won't.
If your decision is not as easy as mine..perhaps you should reexamine it.
JiMIny
|
AND you haven't had a beer with ME??
I am highly insulted. Well, not HIGHLY insulted, cuz I don't DO that anymore, but just, well........you know.
j/k bro.
I understand your decision better than you'll ever know
Posted by Woggy on 07-09-2002 at10:51:
Oh, I have to do this..........
It's just too good!
A man was waiting for his wife to give birth. The doctor came in and informed the dad that his son was born without torso, arms or legs. The son was just a head!
But the dad loved his son and raised him as well as he could, with love and compassion. After 18 years, the son was old enough for his first drink. Dad took him to the bar, tearfully told the son he was proud of him and ordered
the biggest, strongest drink for his boy. With all the bar patrons looking on curiously and the bartender shaking his head in disbelief, the boy took his first sip of alcohol. Swoooosh! A torso popped out!
The bar was dead silent; then burst into a whoop of joy. The father, shocked, begged his son to drink again. The patrons chanted, "Take another drink"! The bartender still shook his head in dismay. Swoooosh! Two arms popped out. The bar went wild.
The father, crying and wailing, begged his son to drink again. The patrons chanted, "Take another drink"! The bartender ignored the whole affair.
By now the boy was getting tipsy, and with his new hands he reached down, grabbed his drink and guzzled the last of it. Swoooosh! Two legs popped out. The bar was in chaos. The father fell to his knees and tearfully thanked God.
The boy stood up on his new legs and stumbled to the left....then to the right .... right through the front door, into the street, where a truck ran over him and killed him instantly. The bar fell silent. The
father moaned in grief.
The bartender sighed and said...
(wait for it)
...."That boy should have quit while he was a head!"
Posted by John 8:58 on 07-11-2002 at22:34:
I agree with John Foxe. I too am his kind of fundamentalist... though I experience the discomfort of "boxer ride".
Posted by Woggy on 07-15-2002 at16:03:
Getting back to this...........
I have a good friend who is a bit "righteous" when it comes to the subject of alcohol use. We had a big old, knock down, drag out fight about it this weekend.............and it left me feeling a bit sad.
She and I have been very close for a number of years - she knows more about me than anyone. I've talked to her often about my struggles with alcohol and drug use, about my husband's alcoholism, about other issues relating to alcohol. She knows, however, that I don't think that the moderate use of alcohol is a sin - in fact, I am very sure that it's not. My own personal conviction is that: The Bible does NOT say alcohol is evil, that the use of it in moderation can even have health benefits, but that it's the ABUSE of it that can lead to all sorts of havoc.
Well, she just BLEW off the handle on me this weekend - and let me know that she cannot understand how I can "defend and condone" ANY alcohol use when it's caused so much havoc in my marriage. She said, more or less, that she's "sick of me talking about how Mr Wog drinks, when you like to drink beer, too!" I tried, without much success, to tell her that it's MY belief that I can have a beer without it being a problem in MY life.............and that I occasionally do. She was just outta control on this - her son, God bless him, interceded during the thick of it. He's a Bible college graduate, and is going into the ministry. He put it all in perspective, so we didn't end up really hurting our relationship.
We had to "agree to disagree", but this has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't feel I can tell her things I used to tell her, and I'm sad about that.
Posted by servantsteve on 07-16-2002 at08:11:
Wogs,
I'm sorry to hear about the rift with your friend on alcohol. I've been through the Scripture so many times on the subject and I'm in total agreement with you- alchohol in moderation is ot prohibited in Scripture and to make it so is to create laws where God does not.
I no longer drink any alcohol because I contracted hepatitis C from a blood transfusion in the 80s. Although I have been cured of hepatitis C, my doctor told me to never again drink any alcohol because of the damage already done to my liver. It's better for me anyway- I always wanted to drink too much for my own good.
I hope and pray Mr Wogs can find release from alcoholism. 2 Tim 1:7 might be some help there- God gives us a spirit of self discipline- maybe your husband can't find the self discipline to get out of his addiction, but the Spirit can and will help.
God bless you and yours,
Steve
Posted by Woggy on 07-16-2002 at13:59:
thanks, Steve
| quote: |
Originally posted by servantsteve
Wogs,
I'm sorry to hear about the rift with your friend on alcohol. I've been through the Scripture so many times on the subject and I'm in total agreement with you- alchohol in moderation is ot prohibited in Scripture and to make it so is to create laws where God does not.
I no longer drink any alcohol because I contracted hepatitis C from a blood transfusion in the 80s. Although I have been cured of hepatitis C, my doctor told me to never again drink any alcohol because of the damage already done to my liver. It's better for me anyway- I always wanted to drink too much for my own good.
I hope and pray Mr Wogs can find release from alcoholism. 2 Tim 1:7 might be some help there- God gives us a spirit of self discipline- maybe your husband can't find the self discipline to get out of his addiction, but the Spirit can and will help.
God bless you and yours,
Steve
|
I, too, hope that Mr Wogs can make it through this. It's been a terribly long battle, however. And my patience has worn almost too thin to make it back.
Bummer about the hepatitis C. I guess, if for ANY reason, I thought my occasional beer was a bad thing, I'd stop. And I have stopped - for many reasons - at different times during my marriage. In fact, about a year before I moved out of my house, I stopped ........... because it caused my husband to stumble worse than he was stumbling already.
Many have been praying for Dan for a long time.....my friend Carol being the first in line. What she said really hurt me - because it was like I contributed to his downfall. I don't believe I did - it would be more the other way around. I always knew that I did not have an addictive personality - he does. My struggles with substance abuse were brought on more by the party atmosphere he wanted to be a part of than by any addiction on my part.
Anyway, thanks for the prayers and encouragement. God IS working in this situation - and I await His answers on all things.
Wogs
Posted by Kaf-N-8ed on 07-19-2002 at11:55:
Oh, this is probably a rather boring post, and we've already heard quite a bit about how it was fermented wine back in those days... but just a little historical thing for you guys to consider.
I was also taught as a child that Jesus drank grape juice. Such silly nonsense!
Well, guess what. Prior to the 20th century (when mankind developed refrigeration) alchohol was the only technological method know for the preservation of beverages.
No beverage except for water even EXISTED without alchohol in it prior to the 20th century.
You didn't squeeze the juice out of some fruit and then refrigerate it. You squeezed the juice out of some fruit and then sealed it in an air tight container so that it would ferment instead of going bad. You didn't open it until you were ready to drink it. And then, of course, when you opened it, you drank the whole thing.
This is why historically in ancient times there were so many hundreds more of different kinds of fermented beverages than there are today.
Cheers!
Gus
P.S. How much wine does it take to get drunk? I've found that if I'm drinking a glass of wine or two every day, I don't get drunk. But if I've gone a few months without drinking anything, one glass of wine is enough to make me silly. Most likely in ancient times when fermented beverages were the only thing you drank, it took a great deal more of the stuff to make you drunk that it does with most people today.
P.P.S. I've read somewhere about how much alchohol C.S. Lewis consumed in the average day. It is quite amazing. The man consumed gallons of alcholholic beverages every day. And, he was know to (if he found a beggar outside on the street) a time or two to take them into the local pub and buy them a pint of ale. ~Gus
Posted by BD on 07-19-2002 at13:10:
''Is there any historical credibility to the notion that in Jesus' day the wine was so watered down it was the equivilant of grape juice today?''
- Iota
''Most likely in ancient times when fermented beverages were the only thing you drank, it took a great deal more of the stuff to make you drunk that it does with most people today. ''
- Gus
thanks for the history lesson. it does make sense if you think about it.
BD
Posted by Author of the Post on 07-19-2002 at13:32:
I think the issue of drinking is also very cultural. It seems that in the United States there is this "anti-alcohol" idea in many Christian communities. But go to Europe (Where Christianity has a much longer history and plays a much bigger role in society) and there is no anti-alcohol sentiment. Wine is a part of dinner, drinking during celebrations is natural.
I just think this thread has a very Ameri-centric view of approaching scripture and the issue of drinking.
I've lived in Europe twice and I'm still amazed at how different religion and Christiany is on each side of the ocean. It almost makes me wonder what happened?
-- The Author of the Post
Posted by jc on 07-19-2002 at14:16:
stated...again
why did they call Jesus a Wine-bibber?
NOT because he drank grapejuice-
that settles it for me as far as what he was drinking.
JimnY
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