Audiori J 
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Registration Date: 11-27-2004
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Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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I think some of this goes back to the heart of the question. I think its a weird mixture of ministry and business. If a person doesn't want to spread a Christian message then its pure business. But if a person is trying to express some Christian principles and truths either for the Church or for the world there is some element of ministry to it, but its still a business.
I think CCM should critique records however they choose, they are a magazine with the intent of informing the listener of this type of music. Personally I would probably like the things they rated low and dislike the things they rated high, but thats fine I don't think I am part of their taregt audience. Their target audience, if it happens to be youth groups and the more religious, then they may rate an artist such as Bruce Cockburn very low because they know its not music that would appeal to that crowd. That makes sense to me. Hevens Metal might give Imaginarium a bad review, because metal heads would probably not like the music. But a kids magazine might rate it really high and rate a metal album really low.
But because this is a business, and there does need to be sales to continue. Then my question would be how far should a band's own website go to allow negative reviews? Especially when a large chunk of their fan base goes to that website for information on new releases. What business in their right mind would want that unless they like the idea of going out of business? The second part of this, and thats the part that boggles my mind is; if this is a relatively small band, who has probably sacrificed bigger things just to continue doing what they do. Why would their own fans go to their website and tell other fans how much they dislike their albums or music? Where is the loyalty? I mean, this is a website for the people that like the music and want DA/Terry to continue. What obligation do we have to give the people that don't like their/his music and want to see it all fail a place to voice their opinion here? In my opinion, none.
My personal opinion is, I want to see them continue. I love this music greatly, it has meant a lot to me over my life. Its more to me than just a band. They have been part of my life and my developement as a Christian. This is why I volunteered to support them in the business side of things, so their ministry could continue. I hate to see anything jeapordise it. Even if I didn't work for them, I would never go to their website and post "such and such album is no good people shouldn't buy it" or "they should just quit." I believe that spirit is one that intends to hurt, and if that is the intention then they are not a fan and they don't belong here.
I think this is all different than saying, "I like Mutt more then Island Dreams. " Or "Instrumental albums don't do anything for me." Or "I prefer the country albums over the rock stuff." Thats opinion, but its not vicious. Its a matter of taste and understandable. I think people are free to voice a negative opinion, write a negative review, whatever they want to do. But a website dedicated to that band is not obligated to have it displayed on their pages.
Tennapel used to have in his board signature a quote that said "I hate doug tennapel" by some moron that frequented his board. That guy was banned. Doug doesn't have to put up with that crap in his own house. They guy kept trying to come back, and I ask the question "why?" He doesn't like Doug Tennapel, whats he want to do at his website other than attack?
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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03-22-2007 18:13 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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What you're talking about is closer to this....
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Originally posted by Audiori J
I think this is all different than saying, "I like Mutt more then Island Dreams. " Or "Instrumental albums don't do anything for me." Or "I prefer the country albums over the rock stuff." Thats opinion, but its not vicious. Its a matter of taste and understandable. |
There have been people that have went so far as to tell everyone else not to buy a certain release.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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03-22-2007 19:37 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
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Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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Hey... it's only rock-n-roll, but I like it!
Not to put too fine a point on it.
The Faith is something you live, not perform.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 21:00 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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"You're not making Jesus better, you're making rock worse!"
~Hank Hill
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 21:02 |
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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
Posts: 777
Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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03-22-2007 21:23 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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With all due respect to Mr. Hill, something tells me he never heard DA, 77s, Steve Taylor, the Lost Dogs, Adam Again, Undercover, Mark Heard and a bunch of other stuff thats considered Christian rock....
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03-22-2007 21:35 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
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| I know what you're saying, but: |
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Take The 77s for example.
Mike Roes takes the history of Rock from folks like the Carter Family, Hank Williams and to Sun Records and onward with it's blues and gospel and soul and boogie woogie that showed the whole of life. Songs about work, family, life and religion are a part of the tradition of Rock and Roll.
The tradition of Johnny Cash.
Jerry Lee Lewis.
Elvis.
Carl Perkins.
Little Richard.
The great and noble tradition of Rock and Roll.
"CCM" is a another animal altogether.
One that holds little interest for me.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 21:48 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
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| RE: I know what you're saying, but: |
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
Take The 77s for example.
Mike Roes takes the history of Rock from folks like the Carter Family, Hank Williams and to Sun Records and onward with it's blues and gospel and soul and boogie woogie that showed the whole of life. Songs about work, family, life and religion are a part of the tradition of Rock and Roll.
The tradition of Johnny Cash.
Jerry Lee Lewis.
Elvis.
Carl Perkins.
Little Richard.
The great and noble tradition of Rock and Roll.
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The 77s Reviews
Rolling Stone
Issue 500 May 21st, 1987
by Margot Mifflin
The 77's are a Bay Area band whose 1984 debut LP, All Fall Down, hit the top of many college charts. Their new release explores the terrain between rollicking rock and lugubrious blues, using memorable hooks, quirky guitars and heady lyrics. While this record suggests the group has varied influences – from Duane Eddy to Echo and the Bunnymen – it succeeds by virtue of Mike Roe's unusual singing and songwriting. Roe shows remarkable vocal diversity, from the Billy Idol baritone of "I Can't Get over It" to the Lou Reed-like talk-singing of "I Could Laugh," a ponderous, cynical plaint underscored by sparse acoustic guitar. In "Pearls Before Swine," the pick of this litter, he laments the selling of a soul.
None of the songs tells much of a story – they're more about attitude and ambiance. In the case of "Frames Without Photographs," Roe's lyrics are downright silly. But his delivery, idiosyncratic without being mannered, propels this record. The 77's have digested a smorgasbord of pop and rock history – mostly of the Fifties and Sixties – and come up with a sound that suggests not only that they know where they're coming from but also that they're going places. (RS 500)
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-31-2007 22:11 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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OK, how do you define "CCM." If the 77s are not CCM, then you can't just include everyone on a Christian or CCM label because the 77s were there (Word).
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03-22-2007 21:56 |
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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
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Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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03-23-2007 11:15 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Strange Animal
| quote: |
Originally posted by minutia
OK, how do you define "CCM." If the 77s are not CCM, then you can't just include everyone on a Christian or CCM label because the 77s were there (Word). |
the 77's, Da, etc. were only on major ccm labels at one point in time because that was the only means possible to get their albums released...
the both are definitely NOT ccm now... 
those labels burned them and treated them like red-headed step-children when their albums didn't sell as much as ccm artists.....
maybe in the 70's ccm included some cool acts...
not it is all just big business and crappy music......... 
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Really? the 77s and DA were only on major CCM labels because there was no other option? It was nothing, or the largest CCM label in the world?
Whether or not they're still CCM depends on how you define what CCM is. Since they're making music that has the same message as what they made back then, I'm assuming you're saying they're not CCM now because they're not on a CCM label? If so, then Steve Taylor, Mark Heard, the 77s, DA, Undercover, etc were all CCM at one point. So knocking CCM is knocking at least some of their music.
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03-23-2007 17:03 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
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For the most part CCM has an agenda.
Once you have an agenda, you are no longer speaking from the heart.
You are a marketing rep.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-22-2007 22:03 |
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jollyholiday
Mind Peach
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 244
Location: The Village
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
For the most part CCM has an agenda.
Once you have an agenda, you are no longer speaking from the heart.
You are a marketing rep. |
Doesn't everyone have an agenda when it comes down to it?
Jesus had (has) an agenda.
(And I'm not equating ccm's agenda with the agenda of Christ here).
Businesses have agendas, ministries, churches, families, professional sports teams, policemen/women, grocery store clerks, drunks... I think if you find yourself agendaless, it might be time to find one 
If someone doesn't like ccm's agenda, no one is forcing anyone to participate in it. I still like to pick up the most recent Starflyer 59 when it releases and a handful of other projects. But no one is holding a gun to my head when a new Point of Grace album comes out.
-jolly
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03-23-2007 15:50 |
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ladrtrk55
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 03-09-2007
Posts: 365
Location: Navasota, Tx
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Gee Manelli Christmas, we are making this far too complicated. Just like we make the Gospel and living for Christ too complicated.
You play a guitar.
You have a couple friends who play bass and drums.
Together you make some music.
You sell some records.
Maybe you're good enough to make a living selling your music.
Maybe you're not and you have to work at the factory all week and play the weekends.
My point is nobody should be subsidizing Christian music. For sure not the Church. It should stand alone in the market place.
The responsibilty of the consumer is a subject for another day.
(re: "Fearful Symetry" on e-bay)
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Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, who will go for us?"
"Here I am, send me!"
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03-22-2007 22:34 |
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minutia
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 02-25-2007
Posts: 76
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I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined. I have a lot of CDs in my collection that I would consider CCM, but that doesn't mean I'm listening to Carman.
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03-22-2007 23:00 |
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ladrtrk55
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 03-09-2007
Posts: 365
Location: Navasota, Tx
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My point. You bought it because you liked it.
I'm not ragging on CCM. If not for them I would never have found out about the whole Christian Metal scene or a band from close by called One Bad Pig. God Bless 'em. They have a purpose. They also have to pay the bills.
I judged the Christian metal scene AND the OBP guys on their own.
Some bands came up measured, weighed, and wanting.....some made a difference....and some, like One Bad Pig, were for real.
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Isaiah 6:8
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, who will go for us?"
"Here I am, send me!"
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03-22-2007 23:10 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined. |
CCM Defined in 3 easy steps:
Step 1: Pick a very popular song, i.e. The Fray's "How to save a life."
Step 2: Make another version of the song with "Christian" lyrics.
i.e. "How to Pray to Christ."
Step 3: Make a truckload of money.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-23-2007 18:09 |
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