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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
Posts: 777
Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Christian_music
Contemporary Christian Music (or CCM) is a genre of popular music which is lyrically focused on matters concerned with the Christian faith. The term is typically used to refer to the Nashville, Tennessee-based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry, currently represented by artists such as Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, Jars of Clay, MercyMe, Petra, Keith Green, Michael Card, Third Day, Relient K, Jeremy Camp, and a host of others. The industry is represented in Billboard Magazine's "Top Christian Albums" and "Hot Christian Songs" charts,[1] as well as the iTunes Music Store's "Christian & Gospel" genre.
The term "Contemporary Christian Music" originated in the late 1960s in reference to the emerging pop and rock "Jesus music", the musical outpouring of the hippie Jesus Movement of the time.[2] Artists such as Larry Norman, 2nd Chapter of Acts, and Love Song were among the first to express their Christian faith in the form of rock music.
There is also a great deal of popular music which lyrically identifies with Christianity but is not normally considered Contemporary Christian Music.[2] For example, many underground punk and hardcore bands deal explicitly with issues of faith but are not a part of the Nashville industry (e.g., Seattle-based Tooth and Nail Records). Also, several mainstream music artists sometimes deal with Christian themes in their work, such as Bob Dylan and U2, but fall outside of the CCM genre
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bobd
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03-23-2007 18:15 |
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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
Posts: 777
Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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again, depends on what your definition is of ccm........
if you compare the first paragraph to the second, it looks like the definition has changed...
yes, terry would be part of the second paragraph... the original Jesus music movement... along with keith green, randy stonehill and larry norman... sure..
but the big business, radio friendly stuff coming out of nashville now?
terry is most certainly not a part of that... and would hope doesn't want to be........ 
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Originally posted by Strange Animal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Christian_music
Contemporary Christian Music (or CCM) is a genre of popular music which is lyrically focused on matters concerned with the Christian faith. The term is typically used to refer to the Nashville, Tennessee-based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry, currently represented by artists such as Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, Jars of Clay, MercyMe, Petra, Keith Green, Michael Card, Third Day, Relient K, Jeremy Camp, and a host of others. The industry is represented in Billboard Magazine's "Top Christian Albums" and "Hot Christian Songs" charts,[1] as well as the iTunes Music Store's "Christian & Gospel" genre.
The term "Contemporary Christian Music" originated in the late 1960s in reference to the emerging pop and rock "Jesus music", the musical outpouring of the hippie Jesus Movement of the time.[2] Artists such as Larry Norman, 2nd Chapter of Acts, and Love Song were among the first to express their Christian faith in the form of rock music.
There is also a great deal of popular music which lyrically identifies with Christianity but is not normally considered Contemporary Christian Music.[2] For example, many underground punk and hardcore bands deal explicitly with issues of faith but are not a part of the Nashville industry (e.g., Seattle-based Tooth and Nail Records). Also, several mainstream music artists sometimes deal with Christian themes in their work, such as Bob Dylan and U2, but fall outside of the CCM genre |
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bobd
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03-24-2007 11:48 |
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dennis 
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Strange Animal
again, depends on what your definition is of ccm........
if you compare the first paragraph to the second, it looks like the definition has changed...
yes, terry would be part of the second paragraph... the original Jesus music movement... along with keith green, randy stonehill and larry norman... sure..
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Exactly. You have it right.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-24-2007 13:35 |
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jollyholiday
Mind Peach
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 244
Location: The Village
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
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Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined. |
CCM Defined in 3 easy steps:
Step 1: Pick a very popular song, i.e. The Fray's "How to save a life."
Step 2: Make another version of the song with "Christian" lyrics.
i.e. "How to Pray to Christ."
Step 3: Make a truckload of money. |
I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album!
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03-23-2007 20:22 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Strange Animal
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Originally posted by jollyholiday
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Originally posted by dennis
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Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined. |
CCM Defined in 3 easy steps:
Step 1: Pick a very popular song, i.e. The Fray's "How to save a life."
Step 2: Make another version of the song with "Christian" lyrics.
i.e. "How to Pray to Christ."
Step 3: Make a truckload of money. |
I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album! |
terry is not ccm and thus doesn't have the truckload.............
don't you get it? 
oh, and btw........ the newsboys show tonight was actually quite good... 
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Yeah... Terry is not in this camp.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-24-2007 09:49 |
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jollyholiday
Mind Peach
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 244
Location: The Village
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Strange Animal
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Originally posted by jollyholiday
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Originally posted by dennis
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Originally posted by minutia
I'm not trying to make it complicated, but I don't want to see all of "CCM" trashed unless it is defined. |
CCM Defined in 3 easy steps:
Step 1: Pick a very popular song, i.e. The Fray's "How to save a life."
Step 2: Make another version of the song with "Christian" lyrics.
i.e. "How to Pray to Christ."
Step 3: Make a truckload of money. |
I sure wish Terry would use some of his truckload to finish that darn Eddies album! |
terry is not ccm and thus doesn't have the truckload.............
don't you get it?
oh, and btw........ the newsboys show tonight was actually quite good...
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I do get it, but I don't think you do.
My Terry's truckload comment was with tongue firmly in cheek.
The notion that ccm artists on the average have a truckload of money is laughable (though I don't think that was the point Dennis was trying to make). I maintain that Terry and most of his incarnations were and still are part of ccm as are many of my favorites (77s / Stonehill / Mark Heard/etc.)
All the word battling and defining in the world will not argue those artists out of their place in ccm history like it or not.
-jolly
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03-24-2007 15:37 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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The problem is, which is what I was alluding to, some artists have traded finacial stability for expressing their faith truthfully. Atists like the ones we all love could of said forget the fans that get something special from my music I want money and made just regular rock n roll, sell out. But they didn't, they have been faithful both to their calling and their fanbase.
If their system was run strictly as a business I think it would have been bankrupt ages ago. We probably wouldn't have the Alarma Chronicles, Darn Floor, or Mr Buenchers Dream. It has taken sacrifices from Terry, the band and support people to keep it going. They have stories going back to the 70s. The only reason its all still going is because the band loves the fans and the fans love the band. They have always had support volinteers like Tom Gulotta, Steve Johnson, etc.
DA, the 77s, the Lost Dogs are CCM like it or not. Contemporary Christian Music is a genre that is defined by people making modern music that expresses their faith. Thats exactly what they are doing. That alone can hurt a career from a business standpoint. The world hates it when people express their faith. They will make fun of the music.
But to take it even further, they also are not fully accepted by the CCM industry because they create something that they want to create and express the way they want to express. I believe the CCM industry as a whole has for business reasons left some artists behind in favor of marketable young hip groups whos message is so obvious the average youth group will get it. Thats done I think, because its a business and that is their target audience, teenagers.
Currently these guys have no big label or marketing group behind them, they rely solely on the fans. The fans keep them alive and going. This website was created for the purpose of support, both financial and marketing support. The idea is to assist them with generating the needed funds to continue making music. The messageboard is here for those who love the band and love their music. Without support from the small loyal fanbase, we won't see another Darn Floor, MBD, or whatever the next DA album would end up being.
As I said, I don't think anyone has a problem with fans expressing which albums they like better. This band has changed styles 30 times, there is going to be this disparity among the fanbase. Everyone has their favorite. As someone who helped create this site and its purpose, I have no obligation to let anyone come to it and damage the purpose of its existence. This is the place for supporting them. If someone says they shouldnt still be making albums or that their albums are bad or whatever they can find their own place to say it, it will not be here. That is a business decision to support a career that is faith based.
Do I feel people can write negative reviews? Sure anywhere they want, on their websites or in their magazines. We have included some here at times as my brother said, we've not stopped fans from saying they like certain albums over others. But being the administrators of the messageboards and webmasters of the websites, its our job to try and determine if something crosses the line into actually hurting things. Under that circumstance we have no obligation to the person expressing it to let it be here. Our obligation is to the band and the reason the website was created, to help them continue.
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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03-23-2007 10:38 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
The problem is, which is what I was alluding to, some artists have traded finacial stability for expressing their faith truthfully. Atists like the ones we all love could of said forget the fans that get something special from my music I want money and made just regular rock n roll, sell out. But they didn't, they have been faithful both to their calling and their fanbase.
If their system was run strictly as a business I think it would have been bankrupt ages ago. We probably wouldn't have the Alarma Chronicles, Darn Floor, or Mr Buenchers Dream. It has taken sacrifices from Terry, the band and support people to keep it going. They have stories going back to the 70s. The only reason its all still going is because the band loves the fans and the fans love the band. They have always had support volinteers like Tom Gulotta, Steve Johnson, etc.
DA, the 77s, the Lost Dogs are CCM like it or not. Contemporary Christian Music is a genre that is defined by people making modern music that expresses their faith. Thats exactly what they are doing. That alone can hurt a career from a business standpoint. The world hates it when people express their faith. They will make fun of the music.
But to take it even further, they also are not fully accepted by the CCM industry because they create something that they want to create and express the way they want to express. I believe the CCM industry as a whole has for business reasons left some artists behind in favor of marketable young hip groups whos message is so obvious the average youth group will get it. Thats done I think, because its a business and that is their target audience, teenagers.
Currently these guys have no big label or marketing group behind them, they rely solely on the fans. The fans keep them alive and going. This website was created for the purpose of support, both financial and marketing support. The idea is to assist them with generating the needed funds to continue making music. The messageboard is here for those who love the band and love their music. Without support from the small loyal fanbase, we won't see another Darn Floor, MBD, or whatever the next DA album would end up being.
As I said, I don't think anyone has a problem with fans expressing which albums they like better. This band has changed styles 30 times, there is going to be this disparity among the fanbase. Everyone has their favorite. As someone who helped create this site and its purpose, I have no obligation to let anyone come to it and damage the purpose of its existence. This is the place for supporting them. If someone says they shouldnt still be making albums or that their albums are bad or whatever they can find their own place to say it, it will not be here. That is a business decision to support a career that is faith based.
Do I feel people can write negative reviews? Sure anywhere they want, on their websites or in their magazines. We have included some here at times as my brother said, we've not stopped fans from saying they like certain albums over others. But being the administrators of the messageboards and webmasters of the websites, its our job to try and determine if something crosses the line into actually hurting things. Under that circumstance we have no obligation to the person expressing it to let it be here. Our obligation is to the band and the reason the website was created, to help them continue. |
i didn't mean to start another wildfire, but thanks for the clarifications. 
i think most of the newer people here would not write negative, bashing type reviews, but with new projects and re-releases in the works seeing the topic of rating CCM discussed certainly brought up this subject for me.
i agree real fans would not want the band to suffer financially because of any comments they might make that could be perceived as negative.
The rub comes when people feel they need to be completely honest and then their review is taken as negative. Maybe some simplified version of all this to the effect of "negative, bashing reviews detrimental to the purpose of the band will not be allowed" should be added as part of one of the " important stickys" in the review section? Maybe it's already there; i haven't looked in awhile.
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Got a few miles left ...
Make sure you have heard a Kind Word! 
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03-23-2007 11:59 |
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Garth
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 06-20-2003
Posts: 77
Location: Dallas
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i just miss the country music.............. 
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03-23-2007 17:55 |
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Ron E
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 5,610
Location: Central Ontario Canada
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He tried but got the formula wrong with Sacred Cows.
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The opinion expressed is that of the participant and does not necessarily reflect that of Mr Dan Amos. But if it doesn't, he would be wrong.
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03-23-2007 21:05 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Ron E
He tried but got the formula wrong with Sacred Cows. |
He got it right on the head if you ask me!
__________________
I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-24-2007 09:50 |
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Ron E
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 5,610
Location: Central Ontario Canada
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
| quote: |
Originally posted by Ron E
He tried but got the formula wrong with Sacred Cows. |
He got it right on the head if you ask me!
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sadly, ccm's not asking you...
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The opinion expressed is that of the participant and does not necessarily reflect that of Mr Dan Amos. But if it doesn't, he would be wrong.
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03-24-2007 20:17 |
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Strange Animal
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 04-19-2002
Posts: 777
Location: Could I keep you locked in a cage in my brain?
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semantics [Gr.,=significant] in general, the study of the relationship between words and meanings. The empirical study of word meanings and sentence meanings in existing languages is a branch of linguistics; the abstract study of meaning in relation to language or symbolic logic systems is a branch of philosophy. Both are called semantics. The field of semantics has three basic concerns: the relations of words to the objects denoted by them, the relations of words to the interpreters of them, and, in symbolic logic, the formal relations of signs to one another (syntax).
In linguistics, semantics has its beginnings in France and Germany in the 1820s when the meanings of words as significant features in the growth of language was recognized. Among the foremost linguistic semanticists of the 20th cent. are Gustaf Stern, Jost Trier, B. L. Whorf, Uriel Weinreich, Stephen Ullmann, Thomas Sebeok, Noam Chomsky, Jerrold Katz, and Charles Osgood. In the linguistics of recent years an offshoot of transformational grammar theory has reemphasized the role of meaning in linguistic analysis. This new theory, developed largely by George Lakoff and James McCawley, is termed generative semantics. In anthropology a new theoretical orientation related to linguistic semantics has been developed. Its leading proponents include W. H. Goodenough, F. G. Lounsbury, and Claude Lévi-Strauss.
In philosophy, semantics has generally followed the lead of symbolic logic, and many philosophers do not make a distinction between logic and semantics. In this context, semantics is concerned with such issues as meaning and truth, meaning and thought, and the relation between signs and what they mean. The leading practitioners have been Gottlob Frege, Lady Welby, Bertrand Russell, Otto Neurath, Rudolf Carnap, Alonzo Church, Alfred Tarski, C. I. Lewis, Ludwig Wittgenstein, J. L. Austin, W. V. Quine, P. F. Strawson, Steven Schiffer, John Searle, H. P. Grice, Saul Kripke, Donald Davidson, and Gilbert Harman.
Since the publication of the influential The Meaning of Meaning (1925) by C. K. Ogden and I. A. Richards, semantics has also become important to literary criticism and stylistics, in which the way that metaphors evoke feelings is investigated and differences between ordinary and literary language are studied. A related discipline, general semantics (so called to distinguish it from semantics in linguistics or philosophy), studies the ways in which meanings of words influence human behavior. General semantics was developed by Alfred Korzybski. The key term in Korzybski's system is evaluation, the mental act that is performed by the hearer when a word is spoken. Among the most prominent followers of Korzybski are Stuart Chase, S. I. Hayakawa, and H. L. Weinberg.
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bobd
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03-24-2007 22:10 |
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Eis
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 3,470
Location: One too many mornings and a thousand miles behind...
Thread Starter 
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The Newsboys have historically put on a good show...as did Paul Colman when he had his trio. Glad the night wasn't a total disappointment...
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03-24-2007 10:03 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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Not only is Terry part of CCM, he was one of its pioneers. He probably produced more CCM albums than anyone else in the market. And I would dispute that "make a truckload of money" is part of the equation, except in the very rare case. I think this is an interesting topic, and it really does speak to the original question of if there should be negative reviews. The whole market of CCM is a dichotomy that a faith based business is. Often times people want to hold the artist to two different standards. They want them to be "Christian" artists, ministry minded, not after the dollar, traveling bards who express their faith for free, give away their music - and they want to be able to rate their albums from a standard business perspective, the production is no good, they don't measure up to secular counterparts, etc. They want the artist to treat it like its not a business, but they themselves want to treat the artist as if it is a business.
I think there are three types of artist, one that are in it for money that is their goal. I believe their success is measured simply in dollars. There are those who have a goal to reach people and express their faith, and take on that traveling bard type of mission. I believe their success is measured by the lives they touch. And there are artists that have a weird mixture of both, their goal is making good art and expressing their faith - they recognise the ugly necessity of money and being a good steward. Their success is measured by the lives they touch and the quality of their art.
I believe the bands we love fall into the third catagory. To make a superior product that 'measures up' they unfortunately need funds. Its not their goal, but its a necessity if they want to continue being viable in their goal.
Someone mentioned "Mr Buechners Dream" as the best thing Terry has done in a long time. I personally would rate "Lost Cabin" pretty close but they are hard to compare since its two different bands. But "Mr Buechners Dream" had a pretty good budget, probably the biggest budget for a Terry related release that we have been involved with. There were quite a few preorders and I myself invested about $2500 into the album, we were told the manager invested $2000 and Terry said there were other investors. The result is a quality product, it was well written, excellently performed, well recorded, wonderfully engineered and mastered. All of those things cost.
The fact that they try to not only express their faith through art, they also acknowledge the business side of things as a necessity to make quality art leads me to say that their albums can be rated both from a business standpoint and from a lives touched standpoint. CCM can review the art, as measuring up or not. And we the fans can measure how much the album means to us, and the quality of art.
I believe there is an element of CCM that developed in the 90s mainly, that is more heavy on the business side. Companies and some artists have shifted their focus closer to the goal of making 'truckloads of money'. Its not all of the artists and not many reach that goal anyway. But I believe that is the element we all despise. I also believe making money is not evil, the love of money is the root of all evil. I would be happy if Terry and the band could make a good living off this art. But as we all know they are the really contemporary, to the point of being ahead of their time, contemporary Christian music artists. They have always been pushing the envelope of that bubble. I believe the artists that do that in this market, and don't conform, take a financial hit. Most of the Cornerstone bands fall into this catagory, the very, very few make truckloads of money. Most are scraping by, because they have been faithful to their art and their fans. They have not sold out and starting making slop pop for a quick buck. A lot of their fans understand this and that is why they support them so vigorously. They want to keep this half of the ccm market from dieing off, so that all we are left with is the crap that is out for money.
Audiori J has attached this image:
__________________
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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03-24-2007 11:24 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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CCM is not one or the other, its both. Both are elements of CCM, even by that fan written definition. CCM is a spectrum that ranges from Bands such as DA, 77s, Stonehill, Keaggy all the way to the other side with Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Amy Grant, Jars of Clay. There is faith based experimental music and faith based pop, and everything in between.
Terry has been part of the Nashville, Tennessee-based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry... just as he was part of the Califronia- based pop, rock, and worship Christian music industry... in the rock or previously country section. Galaxy21 had a deal with Diamante, Terry has had albums put out by the Benson Music Group, was part of KMG and Frontline, and of course Maranatha. Even Solid Rock had a deal with Word. All part of the CCM industry.
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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03-24-2007 11:59 |
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PuP
Moderator
Registration Date: 07-09-2003
Posts: 11,774
Location: The DAmb Home for Wayward Sons and Fragile Daughters
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There are only two kinds of music: good and bad.
And we will probably never agree 100% about which is which.
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"At times this board is a place of thought provoking discussions, but most often it resembles a not quite done Mexican taco." - Jevon the Tall
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03-24-2007 13:34 |
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