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jyroflux 
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 02-23-2007
Posts: 631
Location: Southern California
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Originally posted by dennis
You don't have to be an engineer to know a good sounding mix when you hear it. |
Exactly. To me "Midget" sounds very good. "We Like To Have Christmas" sounds pretty good. "Fun With Sound" sounds very, very good.
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da
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12-28-2007 18:31 |
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dennis
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Registration Date: 09-19-2002
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Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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Whoever mixed "Fun with Sound" did an excellent job! 
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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12-28-2007 18:40 |
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audiori
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Registration Date: 03-12-2002
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Location: Missouri
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Most of Roe's stuff these days are all mastered by the same feller.. Ralph Stover. He also did MUTT and a few other things over the years.
I forget who did Midget.. think it was someone Derri knew.
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12-28-2007 18:44 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
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Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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12-28-2007 20:26 |
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Audiori J
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Registration Date: 11-27-2004
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Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jyroflux
| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
You don't have to be an engineer to know a good sounding mix when you hear it. |
Exactly. To me "Midget" sounds very good. "We Like To Have Christmas" sounds pretty good. "Fun With Sound" sounds very, very good. |
Well.... what sounds like a good sounding mix to one person might not sound like a good sounding mix to another. There is an element of taste involved. What I was saying, is that all of these albums have been professionally mastered and mixed by competent people. Some will appeal to some people and some will appeal to others, but that is a matter of taste not a matter of a poor mix or mastering vs a good one.
Personally, I love the sound of Buechners, I love the mix I think the Engineers did an awesome job and I also like the mastering.. I heard the album before mastering and I think they did an incredible job.
Another aspect to consider is that each of these albums you are talking about were recorded on different equipment. The Green Room was pretty old equipment, and Buechners was recorded there in analog while Midget and Dogs Christmas were recorded at Neverland in digital on some pretty nice equipment with Derri engineering. Fun With Sound would of been recorded at the 77s studio. Its sort of like comparing apples and oranges.
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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12-28-2007 21:19 |
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jyroflux
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 02-23-2007
Posts: 631
Location: Southern California
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
Personally, I love the sound of Buechners, I love the mix I think the Engineers did an awesome job and I also like the mastering.. I heard the album before mastering and I think they did an incredible job.
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I have to say I feel just the opposite. I just went back and randomly listened afresh to some of the songs. The bass is weak. The overall sound lacks 'punch'. It's like the sound is covered in plastic wrap just waiting to break free.
There are absolutes, even in sound. MBD is not an example of a superior recording. I'm sure whatever they used to record MDB is probably better than most studios from the '70's, and I've heard some old recordings remastered from that era that sound incredible. The SACD's by Dylan and Elton John are good examples.
I guess it's just that I'm hoping for improved sound from the new MBD, but if you are satisfied with it, then perhaps that won't happen.
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da
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12-28-2007 23:01 |
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audiori
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Registration Date: 03-12-2002
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Location: Missouri
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Whether or not it changes for the reissue would just depend on whether or not Terry and the guys felt like it needed to be updated in some way.
On the rest of it... I think Jasons point is just that while - to you - it may seem like the "bass is weak, the overall sound lacks punch," etc. - other people may listen to it and think just the opposite. Buechners has been praised as a masterpiece for years by a lot of people.. and not just because of the songwriting and musicianship. It doesn't mean that they're right and you're wrong, or visa versa. It just means that every set of ears has a different "taste." If the bass is strengthened - some would probably think it was too much bass. Mastering is subjective and as much of an art form as songwriting.
Thats why, even in 2007, there is still endless debate about whether Stereo is superior to mono or whether digital is superior to analog. Thats why the engineer I was referring to thought Gene's mixing was horrible and muddy and the next person thinks it sounds wonderful. Thats why when doing the DA30th release, we had people asking us to do completely contradictory things to the album while it was being remastered. You're pretty much left with just trying to make sure the band is happy with the sound and leave it at that.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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12-28-2007 23:57 |
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Audiori J
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Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,728
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jyroflux
There are absolutes, even in sound. MBD is not an example of a superior recording. |
The problem is this is simply your opinion, it doesn't make it true. There is no universal standard as my brother is pointing out. To your ears it sounds substandard, to other people it doesn't. That is a matter of taste, its your opinion, not an absolute. Likewise, my opinion is not an absolute either, its a matter of taste.
If you were comparing an album that was recorded in a basement vs a studio album or an album that was not mastered vs one that was, I would agree with you. In those cases there would be a universal standard of quality vs a lack of it. But in comparing two albums which are both recorded, mixed and mastered professionally... by competent engineers... the results are a matter of taste. Some people will say there isn't enough bass and some will say the treble is too high, some will say its too muddy while others will say too flat or too open or whatever. No one totally agrees. There is no universal standard by which to measure.
Usually if an old album gets remastered its because the artist wants to improve upon the sound due to a vast improvement in technology that wasn't previously available. Buechners was mastered not all that long ago, and as far as I know Terry thought it sounded good, I am sure he picked the engineer. Its his ear I trust when it comes to his recordings, and its his choice as to what needs or gets remastered.
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"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence." ~ Robert Frost
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12-29-2007 01:19 |
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wes berlin
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 3,397
Location: "but today i feel that too much of the church is merely a thermometer, which measures rather than molds popular opinion" mlk 1965
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the whole thing is so overblown.....people have opinions....right or wrong.
mbd has a great "organic" sound (think "the white album"). to wish a kalhoun or a motorcylce (or any other da album) sound is unrealistic.....they are all different sounding which is part of da's charm. is the bass not as prominate? could be, but that doesn't mean it's a bad (or inferior) mix....it's just different. i really think that in the sound scape the mix is very nice. do i wish gene was still alive to mix it....well, yeah but that's not the way life unfolded. and nevermind the daunting task for someone (even for someone who worked with gene) to record and engineer an album in genes space without him there. i have heard many stories about the equipment in the green room and how gene would have to repair things on the fly.
after gene passed i was talking with dan michaels (who had told me the green room was for sale) about buying the green room. and his reply was something like "it was gene that made the room and without him it'll never be the same". something like that....it's been a while.
anyway, as you were.
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12-29-2007 13:48 |
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DwDunphy
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 08-18-2003
Posts: 1,817
Location: Red Bank, New Jersey
Thread Starter 
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I kinda like MBD as is. If major attention is to be paid to something, I'd much rather it be...
...cough...
...a new DA record?
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12-29-2007 18:12 |
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audiori
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Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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Would be nice.. but of course, we need a bunch of these littler things to make that possible short of a financial miracle (or a really successful preorder.. 
).
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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12-29-2007 20:09 |
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sondance
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Registration Date: 05-04-2006
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Location: sittin' on the dock of the bay
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Well I assure you my taste is all in my mouth. There is no way I could comment on a professional level about any album's sound quality. With respect to the comments preceding... to me the guys what wrote the songs and recorded the tracks have done the art. The mix is the packaging so I can hear their great talent at work. The mix should be something I do not have much to say about other than it was great. I do not buy albums to listen to a mix.
If the mix, however avant-garde it may be in the ears of the more sonically astute, gets in the way of me appreciating the artists' talent, then I don't like it.
I think I hear some amazing work on MBD but it is indistinct and i just can't make it out. To me that is sad. 
I am curious if there is a degree of variation to consider when the CDs are... what do you do to make a CD? cut it, press it, spin it, zap it, forge it, print it, hold it up to the light... anyway can a great master churn out a range of quality copies or are they all the same?
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12-29-2007 20:39 |
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audiori
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Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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I guess my personal musical-production tastes were largely Beatle-grown. To me, the artwork, the liner notes, the mix and the mastering are as much a part of the album as anything musical. The fellas may have been the primary tallent there, but George Martin and Geoff Emerick, etc were pretty important as well.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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12-29-2007 22:03 |
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jyroflux
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 02-23-2007
Posts: 631
Location: Southern California
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| quote: |
Originally posted by sondance
If the mix, however avant-garde it may be in the ears of the more sonically astute, gets in the way of me appreciating the artists' talent, then I don't like it.
I think I hear some amazing work on MBD but it is indistinct and i just can't make it out. To me that is sad.
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That's pretty much what I was trying to say above. I tend to look at things too technically. Obtaining the best sound-quality has always been my goal since I was a teenager. So much so that my son now works in movie and television sound post production probably because of my great interest in obtaining the best possible sound. When we listen to music together, we always discuss the mix and mastering more than we talk about the performance. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments above.
When I used to help Tom Gulotta with the fan club back when he ran it, for a while there it was me making the Swirling Mellow cassettes. I'd go to Sound Company and buy the best quality standard bias cassettes they had. I took Tom's master and transferred it to my Teac reel-to-reel and after adding enough stuff to fill both sides of the cassette, I'd dupe them one at a time from the Teac to my Nakamichi cassette deck. Once the guys at Sound Company asked me what I did with all those cassettes and I told them. Of course they said there were faster ways to duplicate but I told them it wouldn't sound as good and they agreed.
I was surprised to see all the variations of the Swirling Mellow cassette listed in the discography. I changed the extras when I got something new from Tom, like a cassette master of some concert recordings. The movie dialogue was added to keep it fun in the Swirling Eddies spirit.
Concerning MBD, I never said it was not a great record, it is. Every single DA fan should own a copy. I just wish it sounded better to my ears.
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da
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12-29-2007 23:12 |
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audiori
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Registration Date: 03-12-2002
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For the record, I never got the sense that anyone was offended by any of the comments in this thread from you or anyone else.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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12-30-2007 00:35 |
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Mountain Fan
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Registration Date: 10-09-2003
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jiminy
I dont hear it falling off ...
I never notice sound inferiority the way you guys do.
and I know thats just me..
(of course- I am from the LP era- where EACH play made a further degeneration...) |
Ditto, except I'm more from the cassette era 
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